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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelP View Post
    The thread could've been 38-post shorter if you mentioned it in the beginning.
    I know. Talking about what to do in a pseudo-hypothetical situation that effects actual business owners is such a waste of time.


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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I know. Talking about what to do in a pseudo-hypothetical situation that effects actual business owners is such a waste of time.

    In fairness, we do chastise posters who don't provide sufficient information when asking technical questions. Your "hypothetical" isn't that different - the fuller the context of the question, the better and more accurately we can try to provide answers.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    In fairness, we do chastise posters who don't provide sufficient information when asking technical questions. Your "hypothetical" isn't that different - the fuller the context of the question, the better and more accurately we can try to provide answers.

    Sure, but if I included that the guy is moving away anyway, there was no question to ask.

    There's no other way to ask the question. HR reps and lawyers and the like will only give you the answer out of their book. I wanted to know what other shop owners thought about the situation.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    In fairness, we do chastise posters who don't provide sufficient information when asking technical questions. Your "hypothetical" isn't that different - the fuller the context of the question, the better and more accurately we can try to provide answers.
    Apparently, it was a philosophical dilemma rather than a request for help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelP View Post
    Apparently, it was a philosophical dilemma rather than a request for help.
    Always row the fox across the river first.

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Although I stand by my statement that I'm no good at this, I agree that nobody could train this guy to be any better than he is currently. My wife agrees on this one. He just does things that make you scratch your head.

    And speaking of cars, I always looked for people that had hobbies like working on cars, etc., because I assumed that means they are mechanically inclined, able to solve problems, etc. One of my last guys said he worked on cars for fun, hopping them up and just tinkering. I thought that was great. Hired him, and then quickly learned that people can suck at hobbies, too. He was clueless, and I hope none of the cars he has touched kills somebody when it breaks.

    I was working on cars long before I learned how to drive, at first it was just taking apart old parts my dad took off cars, after a while I learned how to reassemble them. First major job was a 4 wheel drum brake job on a 68 VW Beetle. No help from anyone when I was 12. I did do one at a time so I had a reference point. My dad knew cars but was lazy, he taught me how to do things and paid me 25 cents an hour. Back then a quarter got you 3 candy bars. Yes I can almost get senior citizen discounts.

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I know. Talking about what to do in a pseudo-hypothetical situation that effects actual business owners is such a waste of time.

    I enjoyed reading the conversation nonetheless. It contains a lot of useful insight.

    I was forced to train a guy in his 50's who was fresh out of "cnc school". He was a nice guy and meant well but he suffered short term memory loss and refused to acknowledge it.

    The guy never wrote anything down. If he did? He would say that he still doesn't understand. Every day was like groundhog day. Set ups were miserable. He'd forget how to use an indicator; couldn't remember what toe clamps, jacks, or tee nuts were.

    I'd say; "Remember we went over this yesterday?"

    And instead of; "sorry I don't remember" - He would say; "No, you never showed me that."

    Every day, every action would require repeated detailed instruction. Worst 8 weeks of my working career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedommachine View Post

    I'd say; "Remember we went over this yesterday?"

    And instead of; "sorry I don't remember" - He would say; "No, you never showed me that."

    Every day, every action would require repeated detailed instruction. Worst 8 weeks of my working career.
    Reading stuff like that reinforces what a fragile miracle the functioning human mind is, and how tragic it can be when a stroke/Alzheimers/drugs or some other reason degrades it.

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    If you're questioning how you lead and manage, there's a great book that addresses leadership.

    Extreme Ownership - Echelon Front

    It's available from Amazon if you shop there. The follow-on book The Dichotomy of Leadership is also a very good read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedommachine View Post
    I enjoyed reading the conversation nonetheless. It contains a lot of useful insight.

    I was forced to train a guy in his 50's who was fresh out of "cnc school". He was a nice guy and meant well but he suffered short term memory loss and refused to acknowledge it.

    The guy never wrote anything down. If he did? He would say that he still doesn't understand. Every day was like groundhog day. Set ups were miserable. He'd forget how to use an indicator; couldn't remember what toe clamps, jacks, or tee nuts were.

    I'd say; "Remember we went over this yesterday?"

    And instead of; "sorry I don't remember" - He would say; "No, you never showed me that."

    Every day, every action would require repeated detailed instruction. Worst 8 weeks of my working career.
    I'm pretty sure that guy works for me now.

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    Something I had meant to say and forgot ( I didn't make a note ) is that quite a few times before I sent someone down the road I would often think a bit about what I thought they might actually be good at and what businesses around might be able to use a guy like that then I would try to get them together, It doesn't hurt to try and it might make a win, win, win. Just because someone couldn't work out in my machine shop doesn't mean he can't help Allen at the hardware store. Even someone that is good in your shop might not be much help in mine. I did have real good luck with girls, often they are afraid to try and many don't want dirty hands but the ones that tried were often good. They tend to ask rather than guess, pay attention to their work and stop if something is wrong. Many will make a binder of how to's and reference it.

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    If the guy is a $12/hr button pusher and the foreman can remind him of things

    And you think he will not walk at a dollar across the street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    So you take an acceptable employee, and then "change the rules" midstream ?

    Anyone working there would/should wonder when you would doo the same to them based on which way the wind in blowing today.
    I have this thing: If I've told somebody to do something twice? I've told them one too many times.
    Matt has stated that he constantly reminds this person to mind to the coolant after lunch.
    As far as I'm concerned, at this point it is the employee that is changing the rules, not Matt.
    The rules have been in effect all along, and ignored.
    Ya'll constantly sticking up for the slackers is maybe why general work-ethic today isn't what it used to be. SMGDH

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I have this thing: If I've told somebody to do something twice? I've told them one too many times.
    Matt has stated that he constantly reminds this person to mind to the coolant after lunch.
    As far as I'm concerned, at this point it is the employee that is changing the rules, not Matt.
    The rules have been in effect all along, and ignored.
    Ya'll constantly sticking up for the slackers is maybe why general work-ethic today isn't what it used to be. SMGDH
    If you want to be a hardass on repeated reminders, that's fine. But the way your original post came across was not like that. It read like you were advocating to change the shop environment with the explicit intent to make a current employee's life hell until he quits, making room for a better prospect. That's unethical, in my opinion worse than an out-of-the-blue firing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I have this thing: If I've told somebody to do something twice? I've told them one too many times.
    Matt has stated that he constantly reminds this person to mind to the coolant after lunch.
    As far as I'm concerned, at this point it is the employee that is changing the rules, not Matt.

    The rules have been in effect all along, and ignored.
    Ya'll constantly sticking up for the slackers is maybe why general work-ethic today isn't what it used to be. SMGDH
    I found instead of relying on the few employees I've ever had following any simple tasks like (for instance) checking coolant, it was just simpler to do it myself. less frustrating in the end.

    Got to be realistic about what you can expect from workers these days. Otherwise your going to be constantly dissapointed by the human race. (Which I am but for different reasons)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I have this thing: If I've told somebody to do something twice? I've told them one too many times.
    Matt has stated that he constantly reminds this person to mind to the coolant after lunch.
    As far as I'm concerned, at this point it is the employee that is changing the rules, not Matt.
    The rules have been in effect all along, and ignored.
    Ya'll constantly sticking up for the slackers is maybe why general work-ethic today isn't what it used to be. SMGDH
    NO, your still treating him the same, then BAM ! One day you tork off, and start changing his work routine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    If you want to be a hardass on repeated reminders, that's fine. But the way your original post came across was not like that. It read like you were advocating to change the shop environment with the explicit intent to make a current employee's life hell until he quits, making room for a better prospect. That's unethical, in my opinion worse than an out-of-the-blue firing.
    My response was generated by two things: my own personal experiences with employees, and reading between the lines in Matt's first post.
    I might could have worded it differently? But, essentially it was me venting that I think Matt should start enforcing the slackers responsibilities.
    You know, the ones that have been in effect, but ignored, probably the whole time.
    Call me an ass-hole, I don't care. But, if anybody has high morals, and a conscience? Its me.
    Back to my moral dilemma: I should have laid Joe off the day my production job got shut down in April 2021!
    I can handle the rest of the work-load myself. No problem. But, I didn't! Joe needed his 40. Joe got his 40.
    So, don't go accusing me of being an "unethical hardass".
    But, at the same time, I'm real damn tired of people in general thinking their lively-hood is owed to them.
    I treat people on an individual basis, exactly how they deserve to be treated.

    I am the nicest guy in the world to the neighbor across the way. I am the biggest ass-hole on the planet to the creep behind me!

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  26. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Reading stuff like that reinforces what a fragile miracle the functioning human mind is, and how tragic it can be when a stroke/Alzheimers/drugs or some other reason degrades it.
    It certainly does. It provided an interesting analysis of my own short term sanity as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by charlie gary View Post
    If you're questioning how you lead and manage, there's a great book that addresses leadership.

    Extreme Ownership - Echelon Front

    It's available from Amazon if you shop there. The follow-on book The Dichotomy of Leadership is also a very good read.
    This is one aspect of myself that I am always trying to refine. You know, the old saying; "you cannot change the world, you can only change how you interact with it."

    The best quote I've ever gotten from a personal accountability book was;
    "It is better to be told to wait then to wait to be told." I give that one to anyone that works for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    Something I had meant to say and forgot ( I didn't make a note ) is that quite a few times before I sent someone down the road I would often think a bit about what I thought they might actually be good at and what businesses around might be able to use a guy like that then I would try to get them together, It doesn't hurt to try and it might make a win, win, win. Just because someone couldn't work out in my machine shop doesn't mean he can't help Allen at the hardware store. Even someone that is good in your shop might not be much help in mine. I did have real good luck with girls, often they are afraid to try and many don't want dirty hands but the ones that tried were often good. They tend to ask rather than guess, pay attention to their work and stop if something is wrong. Many will make a binder of how to's and reference it.
    Henry Ford had the same approach. He believed that everyone was good at something, the only challenge was finding out what. (Of course he had far more resources than any of us and welfare/food stamps didn't exist.)

    In his book; "My life and work" he writes that in simple terms, if you're not good at what you do, you must do something else. He didn't care if it was a manager or floor sweeper, they would be interviewed and offered a job that fit their ability better.

    They even did social experiments. Things like hiring bed ridden hospital patients to sort fasteners. He wrote that the nurses found the patients to be in much higher spirits knowing that they were earning their own way doing something productive.

    He had a team of social workers who would go to employees homes and interview their families. If your kids were healthy; if your home was tidy; if you weren't a drunken wife beater, you wage went up 40%! Different times for sure.

    Anyway, my apologies for the rant. Here is the book if anyone is interested (the audio version is pretty good)

    My Life & Work - An Autobiography of Henry Ford: Ford, Henry: 9781494283001: Amazon.com: Books

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    My response was generated by two things: my own personal experiences with employees, and reading between the lines in Matt's first post.
    I might could have worded it differently? But, essentially it was me venting that I think Matt should start enforcing the slackers responsibilities.
    You know, the ones that have been in effect, but ignored, probably the whole time.
    Call me an ass-hole, I don't care. But, if anybody has high morals, and a conscience? Its me.
    Back to my moral dilemma: I should have laid Joe off the day my production job got shut down in April 2021!
    I can handle the rest of the work-load myself. No problem. But, I didn't! Joe needed his 40. Joe got his 40.
    So, don't go accusing me of being an "unethical hardass".
    But, at the same time, I'm real damn tired of people in general thinking their lively-hood is owed to them.
    I treat people on an individual basis, exactly how they deserve to be treated.

    I am the nicest guy in the world to the neighbor across the way. I am the biggest ass-hole on the planet to the creep behind me!
    No hard feelings. I feel like I have interacted with you enough here to know that you are a stand-up guy who has high expectations from himself and others, and doesn't take any crap from people. I'm not accusing you of being something else, just trying to point out why some people got bad vibes when you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71
    And there really is only one answer for you if you ask me. Work the slacker to his breaking point and make him quit.
    Start piling on responsibilities that he doesn't like. And you take over the ones he does. It won't take long.
    The way you wrote it made it sound like you wanted to force him out without letting him know he was on the ropes in the first place. When you lay it out more plainly, that the employee needs to be told to shape up, he's not going to get any more slack for his shortfalls, expecting that he'll be out the door shortly, it's a lot more reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie gary View Post
    If you're questioning how you lead and manage, there's a great book that addresses leadership.

    Extreme Ownership - Echelon Front

    It's available from Amazon if you shop there. The follow-on book The Dichotomy of Leadership is also a very good read.

    This is an excellent book.


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