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  1. #41
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    As you have patent protection, it would be of interest if you link those patents or provide some background on your design.
    It’s hard to say if you are talking a tactical or precision sight though I am guessing tactical.

    If precision- you might want to float the ideal with this membership before you commit to manufacturing:

    Olympic Pistol - TargetTalk

    This group can help you sort out the topic- there is real solid experience there.

    For this forum a breakdown of parts is required to assess/assist shop setups
    For each part-
    Material, features, finish, tolerances.

    I hate to be such a hard ass about this but you seriously need to validate this sight before you can assess it’s market.
    And do that BEFORE you setup to manufacture it.

    This is meaningless:

    “I'm a completely novice shooter and the results of pass/fail product range test got me all 10 shots 'on target' with 3 of them directly in the bulls eyes, using my .45 at full range (25 yards).“
    “Serious novice.
    This thing actually works.”

    25 yards is not full range, stance/rested/offhand?, what target did you use, what size group are you getting, how large is your group if you take the sights off the gun and just sight down the barrel, and dropping three shots in the bullseye is a common result from a random distribution of even very poor groups.

    This is four shots of ten at 50 yards iron sights off hand:

    ed5a7f1f-960a-480d-a901-11b5d6b5c804.jpg

    Attachment 257648

    It’s meaningless.

    Contact pistol clubs and put your sight in the hands of people who know how to shoot.
    They can assess merit, a novice cannot.
    If you are interested- contact me.
    I can put you in touch with the right people.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    As you have patent protection, it would be of interest if you link those patents or provide some background on your design.
    It’s hard to say if you are talking a tactical or precision sight though I am guessing tactical.

    If precision- you might want to float the ideal with this membership before you commit to manufacturing:

    Olympic Pistol - TargetTalk

    This group can help you sort out the topic- there is real solid experience there.

    For this forum a breakdown of parts is required to assess/assist shop setups
    For each part-
    Material, features, finish, tolerances.

    I hate to be such a hard ass about this but you seriously need to validate this sight before you can assess it’s market.
    And do that BEFORE you setup to manufacture it.

    This is meaningless:

    “I'm a completely novice shooter and the results of pass/fail product range test got me all 10 shots 'on target' with 3 of them directly in the bulls eyes, using my .45 at full range (25 yards).“
    “Serious novice.
    This thing actually works.”

    25 yards is not full range, what target did you use, what size group are you getting, how large is your group if you take the sights off the gun and just sight down the barrel, and dropping three shots in the bullseye is a common result from a random distribution of even very poor groups.

    This is four shots of ten at 50 yards iron sights off hand:

    ed5a7f1f-960a-480d-a901-11b5d6b5c804.jpg

    Attachment 257648

    It’s meaningless.

    Contact pistol clubs and put your sight in the hands of people who know how to shoot.
    They can assess merit, a novice cannot.
    If you are interested- contact me.
    I can put you in touch with the right people.
    Not to hijack the thread but that is some damn fine shooting! I didn't know people were able to hold those groups at that distance. Well done.

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    It was either a moment of perfection or a total fluke- impossible to say which...lol
    The earlier 25 yard string is how I shoot when dialed in.
    Or used to- I haven’t been practicing for a couple of years.

    I was ok- I shot with guys who were greats.
    Ten shots rapid fire off hand with a 45 at 25 yards landing in a inch when they were on their game... wow.

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    *Every day is Monday
    *Say good bye to weekend
    *Make sure your significant other is dedicated to the hours and work required. I have lost girlfriends with this one. (They say they will help and support but they sure don't like being second place to the business.)
    *Make sure your product is the first and the best. As soon as the public knows it will be stolen by China and show up in Harbor Fright
    *Is there anything else you can do with the equipment you will be needing?
    *What is the back up for extra money the lean times? Can you fix cars in the shop? Can you weld? Can you rebuild equipment?
    *Learn to say no.
    *Avoid walk in work if you can.
    *Can you still do work for your existing employer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    It’s meaningless.
    I absolutely agree. I've already arranged to meet up with the president of the local IDPA chapter in order to have a formal group evaluation because I am honestly worried that I seeing the world through rose-colored glasses right now.

    Something I stripped out of my second post were a few situations that I've encountered besides the GUNS magazine editor. One of the good stories involves me going to a new gun range to test the latest version, at that time. I didn't know the staff, they didn't know me, and it was a perfect opportunity to get some real feedback from ppl in the industry that could care less about impressing me or hurting my feelings.

    For a lack of a better expression, these guys lost their minds.

    I'll never forget the way the first guy picked up my pistol and his face melted. He told me not to move, ran off, and recruited two guys there that were considered the 'experts' among the staff. When they got to my lane there was no introductions, I gave no explanations, they just cut between me and my gun, picked it up, and started using it.

    The spoke between themselves but I managed to overhear a few things and I couldn't have scripted it better: "Nothing like this out there", "Really cool", and my favorite "This is gonna be big".

    By the end of it I had so many staff in my lane it looked like I was being arrested.

    I have a few more super positive stories - though, to me, this has to be among the best - but this is why I'm worried.

    Long and short: pooh or get off the pot. And my butt is numb. Time to end the incremental improvements, know that it's at a place where I would buy one, and take things to the next level. So my machine is at the riggers now in Ohio.

    Here come the painful questions:
    a) When I arrange for transport would you advise that I be there to watch it get loaded or trust that everyone knows their jobs better than I do? (They do.)
    b) When it gets here shall I contract for a professional inspection deep dive into it?
    c) (Fun question) I chose the Sandvik tool package over Iscar and Kennametal. What would you have chosen?
    d) I need space to work. How would you find shops that may have some space to sublet? Would you go that route?

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plane Parts View Post
    *Every day is Monday
    *Say good bye to weekend
    *Make sure your significant other is dedicated to the hours and work required. I have lost girlfriends with this one. (They say they will help and support but they sure don't like being second place to the business.)
    *Make sure your product is the first and the best. As soon as the public knows it will be stolen by China and show up in Harbor Fright
    *Is there anything else you can do with the equipment you will be needing?
    *What is the back up for extra money the lean times? Can you fix cars in the shop? Can you weld? Can you rebuild equipment?
    *Learn to say no.
    *Avoid walk in work if you can.
    *Can you still do work for your existing employer?
    All gold here thx. And a few points in response is that I hate Fridays because the weekend slow me down. And I'm aiming (pun not intended) for the funds I have to last exactly one year after which, if things don't pan out, I already have several fall back plans.

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    Bones- to above.

    Perfect- practiced marksmen are giving you feedback.
    Forgive my caution here but this is a particularly refined discipline.
    I will be thrilled to see you get setup and bring a product to market.
    Post a link to retail when your work launches.
    You might find some buyers here.

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    Default startup

    Watch the cash flow, more shops go belly up not because they are not profitable, but rather because of insufficient cash flow. You gotta pay the bills.......

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    I can tell you that most importantly, make sure your real estate is good. Make sure your landlord/lease/space are all to your liking, or at least as much as possible. Moving a shop is expensive and a jerk landlord even worse. I've had to deal with both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones288 View Post
    I absolutely agree. I've already arranged to meet up with the president of the local IDPA chapter in order to have a formal group evaluation because I am honestly worried that I seeing the world through rose-colored glasses right now.

    Something I stripped out of my second post were a few situations that I've encountered besides the GUNS magazine editor. One of the good stories involves me going to a new gun range to test the latest version, at that time. I didn't know the staff, they didn't know me, and it was a perfect opportunity to get some real feedback from ppl in the industry that could care less about impressing me or hurting my feelings.

    For a lack of a better expression, these guys lost their minds.

    I'll never forget the way the first guy picked up my pistol and his face melted. He told me not to move, ran off, and recruited two guys there that were considered the 'experts' among the staff. When they got to my lane there was no introductions, I gave no explanations, they just cut between me and my gun, picked it up, and started using it.

    The spoke between themselves but I managed to overhear a few things and I couldn't have scripted it better: "Nothing like this out there", "Really cool", and my favorite "This is gonna be big".

    By the end of it I had so many staff in my lane it looked like I was being arrested.

    I have a few more super positive stories - though, to me, this has to be among the best - but this is why I'm worried.

    Long and short: pooh or get off the pot. And my butt is numb. Time to end the incremental improvements, know that it's at a place where I would buy one, and take things to the next level. So my machine is at the riggers now in Ohio.

    Here come the painful questions:
    a) When I arrange for transport would you advise that I be there to watch it get loaded or trust that everyone knows their jobs better than I do? (They do.)
    b) When it gets here shall I contract for a professional inspection deep dive into it?
    c) (Fun question) I chose the Sandvik tool package over Iscar and Kennametal. What would you have chosen?
    d) I need space to work. How would you find shops that may have some space to sublet? Would you go that route?

    A) And other than being a witness to an "aw Schidt!", what doo you think that you are gunna doo about it if you were there?

    B) For what? It's yours now. Time to make parts. If something needs fixed - you'll find it soon enough.
    No point looking for trouble now...

    C) Again - what value is an answer to that at this point?

    D) IDK. I could use another 12K' myself... Good luck with that ...


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    A) And other than being a witness to an "aw Schidt!", what doo you think that you are gunna doo about it if you were there?

    B) For what? It's yours now. Time to make parts. If something needs fixed - you'll find it soon enough.
    No point looking for trouble now...

    C) Again - what value is an answer to that at this point?

    D) IDK. I could use another 12K' myself... Good luck with that ...


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    That's where I'm at too (on all of your points). Side note about the space, I JUST found an industrial park with <1k sqft spaces with 3-phase! The park is huge has 10 other cnc shops there too, so if things go too well it'll be easier to send out some of the parts.

    How about this question:

    a) I've never used the Mitsubishi controller, which is on the machine now. Should I consider having it replaced with, say, some Fanuc model? Or would that be more of a consideration for a job-shop machine? (I'll be more production.)

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    If you are buying anything that will fit in a 1000' building, the machine is likely junk when the control dies.
    Just forget changing controls.

    The only Mits that I have is 1990, and it runs fine.


    ----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Patents are a rich man's game. It costs more than a million dollars and years to prosecute one case. Then you have to collect. If you sue the knockoff in China they won't show up, worst case they have to change the name of the company and keep on keeping on. You'll be out of pocket a ton for a judgement you can't collect. If you sue the distributors, retailers or shops carrying the knockoff you'll lose the goodwill of the community.

    I'm not advocating for hotdog carts, I'm just saying that from how you present your situation you aren't and won't be in a position where your patents do much good, so plan accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comatose View Post
    Patents are a rich man's game. It costs more than a million dollars and years to prosecute one case. Then you have to collect. If you sue the knockoff in China they won't show up, worst case they have to change the name of the company and keep on keeping on. You'll be out of pocket a ton for a judgement you can't collect. If you sue the distributors, retailers or shops carrying the knockoff you'll lose the goodwill of the community.

    I'm not advocating for hotdog carts, I'm just saying that from how you present your situation you aren't and won't be in a position where your patents do much good, so plan accordingly.

    Isn't that simply a sad state of affairs?


    I have absolutely nothing agginst the Chinc.
    He is just trying to make tomorrow better than today for his family - no different than the rest of us.

    Nothing agginst the Chinc Gov either.
    They are just trying to make their country stronger than yesterday.

    The fact that OUR gov lets this Shiite onshore is the trouble!
    Cheap Schidt today = collapsed manufacturing base tomorrow and weak continent that barely could stand on it's own if Long Beach slid into the ocean.

    So they have decimated our ability to doo it ourselves, all the while we now owe them trillions of $ for the pleasure.
    It's "so cheap", yet we can't even pay on Tuesday for the Schidt we bought yesterday.



    Look no further than the mirror for our troubles....




    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    The only thing that matters in starting a business is the sales of the product. If you have not sold a few hundred of these you are nuts to even buy machines and rent space and cash in your retirement. I would have farmed out the manufacturing to a local shop and had them make a few hundred then sold them and used the money to buy more and pay yourself back. If you can sell a few hundred you may have a good product. I have a small business that I started with no money. Machines are the least of your concerns making stuff is easy selling it is what is important. I just got a cnc mill and a lathe after 10 years of being in business making my products. We own several buildings and have 13 fulltime employees. There are 3 people on the production side and 10 people on customer service and packing and shipping. Marketing and pushing your product will take all of your time. Farm out the making and focus on the selling it is the only thing that should be of concern to you. Nothing else matters if you cant sell these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Don't quit your day job until/unless your business takes off. Minimize your financial commitments like shop rent, or worse a shop mortgage.
    THIS X 1billtrillion.
    Don't spend what you can't afford has already been said but needs saying again.

    Don't even think about replacing the controller on your machine. You should be focussing your mind/effort on a thousand other things you need to do.

    IMO patents were a waste of time (talking UK and golf putters) but design registration was worth every penny.
    I know golf putters are different than what you're doing, but a design registration allowed the "shape" of the part not to be copied and were a fraction of the price to patents.

    Good luck in following your dream, but from what I am reading, I would work from home and sub your parts to start with and then see how the market is.
    This gives you time to focus on marketing (and everything else), while "professionals" are making your parts.
    When you are hopefully selling enough, you can then decide which way you want to go (premises/bring manufacture in-house etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones288 View Post
    What's in your shop?

    Since this hasn't been touched out here, I will put this out there for Mr. King.


    B&amp;A Precision



    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones288 View Post
    +20 replies in under 24 hours?!?! And most of these ARE gold!

    All of the feedback I've received is definitely something I'm going use going forward.

    My product is a new type of '2-in-1' gun sight for pistols. I'm a completely novice shooter and the results of pass/fail product range test got me all 10 shots 'on target' with 3 of them directly in the bulls eyes, using my .45 at full range (25 yards).
    The real kicker here is that this test took place 3 years after I had stopped going to the range entirely so I could chase this product and my lifetime handgun experience prior to this was about 3 or 4 months long in total. Serious novice.
    This thing actually works.
    Thanks again,
    Bones
    There is a limited market so beware of that. I had two products that were fantastic. Everyone wanted one in the industry. Problem is there aren't that many people in the industry. So I stopped making them. There are not a whole lot of people in the sport pistol shooting market base. What happens when the last sport shooter buys one of your products? Now that I know the product...(and rememeber advice is like aholes...) Sub out the work for a few dozen, pack up a suitcase, and hit every shooting club and gun show in the state. You may find it will be easier, and cheaper, to farm out everything but assembly and packaging, and focus on sales. One of my big mistakes early on was trying to do everything myself. There was just no way I could have both manufactured, and sold, my products as a two or three person shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plane Parts View Post
    There is a limited market so beware of that. I had two products that were fantastic. Everyone wanted one in the industry. Problem is there aren't that many people in the industry. So I stopped making them. There are not a whole lot of people in the sport pistol shooting market base. What happens when the last sport shooter buys one of your products? Now that I know the product...(and rememeber advice is like aholes...) Sub out the work for a few dozen, pack up a suitcase, and hit every shooting club and gun show in the state. You may find it will be easier, and cheaper, to farm out everything but assembly and packaging, and focus on sales. One of my big mistakes early on was trying to do everything myself. There was just no way I could have both manufactured, and sold, my products as a two or three person shop.

    Given the timeline to knock-offs, the more that you can stomp out the quickest - the better.


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Default Sell fast, improve always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones288 View Post
    -And MVP works great in the world of apps and sw where upgrades and fixes can happen autonomously and no one expects a perfect beta. But a real physical product had better be right the first time because no one is going to buy it a second time if it didn't work the first.
    I would disagree. First gen products are usually not perfect, but good products made by good companies get better with time. Glock's motto is "Perfection", and they're on Gen 5 guns...

    A suggestion that's has worked for us selling a niche product to the military- certain "Special" units have the money and freedom to buy things like sights. At one place while I was in we were each issued a pelican case with a half dozen different rifle sights, use what you want.

    Point being, these guys can buy a couple dozen of your sights as an open purchase, use them for a training cycle or deployment, break ten and loose the rest, then buy the new improved generation for the next cycle. We're not talking service wide adoption, that's a whole nother story.

    But you do need to know a couple guys to get your foot in the door in the first place.

    Low overhead has been key for us also.

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