Got a fun one for you guy's

Jetrocket · Oct 29, 2018

Found employees working on gun parts...

OK... so I came by work on a Saturday just to take the dog out into the field behind our shop and happened to notice one of the employees cars parked in front of the building. Went inside to see what was going on and to my surprise I found two of my guys in the shop completing some 80% lower receivers (approx. 10 of them)… neither had informed the owner or requested use of a machine over the weekend. I know absolutely nothing of guns but in my limited knowledge I believe they need to apply for a serial# from the California DOJ if they are completing them... I also believe that they are only allowed for personal use not for sale? I have a hard time believing all 10 of these were for them and them alone. What kind of risk have they put the shop in? What would you do if you found your guys doing this? Conveniently neither showed up for work today lol.

AARONT · Oct 29, 2018

You may want to change the title before your thread gets locked. But it sounds like what they are doing may be illegal. According to the link below, they must first apply for a serial number before working on the lower. It is also illegal for someone to do the work for someone else without an FFL. So unless they applied for a serial# and they are only for their personal use, then they are breaking the law.

If it were my guys and they were worth a damn, I would tell them if they ever use the shop without permission, they are done. If they are not worth a damn and it won't kill production to lose them, I'd shit can them for being idiots and for using my shop without permission.

8% Lower Receivers FAQ

Jetrocket · Oct 29, 2018

TITLE CHANGED!!!

And yeah that's what I read... just irks me that this was somehow thought to be OK. If I owned the shop I'd do the above.

thermite · Oct 29, 2018

Jetrocket said:
TITLE CHANGED!!!

And yeah that's what I read... just irks me that this was somehow thought to be OK. If I owned the shop I'd do the above.

So you what you REALLY want to happen is that some OTHER PM member who knows how to contact the owner points him to this thread to klew him in?

At which point he has to wonder why TF you didn't just ring him up "in the minute" and ask him to come by his shop, lay his OWN eyeball on the problem. Or show you the already-issued S/N list, if in fact it is NOT a "problem".

This can be serious enough s**t to get the damned doors security-taped shut while it is sorted out as to his OWN involvement.

Or not.

Meanwhile, a bunch of you are sweating how to pay the mortgage with no work going out those sealed doors and payroll account under Federal freeze while forensic auditors crawl his financials for the past year or several?

Not really in the same class of "government work" as turning a shift knob for the odd pickup truck out of a buck or two worth of drop, is it?
.

Jetrocket · Oct 29, 2018

Messaged him the moment I saw what they were up too... he's out on a vacation and not wanting to get into it at this moment although he is confused I explained all that I saw as well as what I found to be the "laws" on it. Don't let the 2 idiots have you think I'm in the same category, posted to see what the severity of all this could be to help better explain to him when he comes back.

"This can be serious enough s**t to get the damned doors security-taped shut while it is sorted out as to his OWN involvement." - This is what I was worried about and wanted to get through 2 thick skulls if/when they show up for work.

Also why hasn't my title changed? Or is it just me?

thermite · Oct 29, 2018

Jetrocket said:
Messaged him the moment I saw what they were up too...

Good on yah.

There's not wanting to be a rat. And there's not wanting to be branded an accomplice to a crime.

JMNSHO, but you picked the better balance of the two!

Safer one anyway.

Some asshole of that stripe thinks to take revenge for putting him off his scheme?

There's "defensive" stuff waaay more fast and deadly that Mattel toy twenty-twos.

tim9lives · Oct 29, 2018

I really hate ratting people out. That said....I'd immediately rat these idiots out because they are putting every employee at risk...And risking the shop owner too. The Feds really look down on this crap. They'll make this shop and the owner an example. And its possible they could indict the owner on a co-conspiracy charge too. Its just too damned stupid in my opinion. If I was the owner, I'd let the idiots know that I'm calling the Feds because I want to get in front of this. There's just too much to risk IMO.

72bwhite · Oct 29, 2018

That is a big no no.
they are causing a problem with the Feds,
ATF has ruled that you are the manufacture if you allow your machines to be used to make a fire arm.
So yes there is a potential problem for the owner, illegal manufacture of fire arms.

Was it my shop they would be fired and reported to the Feds.
At the very least make it known that such activity isn't to be tolerated.
And yes they would have needed to obtain a serial number from the state as well,
but isn't all that uncommon to apply after the fact I'm sure.

guest · Oct 29, 2018

I don't think I'd call the Feds on my own shop, but I'd shitcan the idiots, confiscate and destroy the lowers if I could, and I'd tell them don't bother to apply for UI because I will tell the State you were manufacturing illegal firearms in my shop.

thermite · Oct 29, 2018

guest said:
I don't think I'd call the Feds on my own shop, but I'd shitcan the idiots, confiscate and destroy the lowers if I could, and I'd tell them don't bother to apply for UI because I will tell the State you were manufacturing illegal firearms in my shop.

I like the "simple justice" of that, but seriously? Best to not ever get involved in suspended threats of "futures" at all. That's for Courts and Judges, and they get grotty anyone poaches on THEIR patch.

High risk for a biz owner to NOT call the Law. Google "ultra vires"

"Local law" can serve. Supposed to work that way.

Puts you on the record with folk you deal with more often, covers you FAR better if the fools mean harm. Local law are then more likely to paint you helpful to the Fed before they arrive, IF ever they even do arrive. Sheriff might kick it to State Police first instead. More that just the Fed have laws. Their Day Jobs all that "jurisdictional" stuff. Not mine. 'bout four hundred years at Sheriffing and Magistrating ended two generations back. Got more interesting stuff to do, since.

Feds have a lot of fires to pee on, and a not unlimited budget. Not unlimited until they consider that the nation is being f**ked with, anyway. Then it can sort of go thermonuclear.

72bwhite · Oct 29, 2018

The instances where the Feds have come down hard were where guys were
charging for so called build parties, or were actively knowingly
engaged in illegal manufacturing for profit.

now then there is also the issue of using the equipment with out permission,
and what policy is on that.

CarbideBob · Oct 29, 2018

So these guys have keys to the building and think it's ok to use the machines and cutters when and how they like without permission?
At what point could this idea go bad?
Bob

thermite · Oct 29, 2018

CarbideBob said:
So these guys have keys to the building and think it's ok to use the machines and cutters when and how they like without permission?
At what point could this idea go bad?
Bob

Oh.. probably about when the OWNER missed the K101 kindergarten course on "responsibility" AKA "the buck stops HERE!" for whomever is in charge of anything at all?

Well.. it was a kindergarten-level course for Army brats, anyway. Rank hath its privilege. Rank hath its responsibility.

Fabworks · Oct 29, 2018

Here is some info on 80% lowers in California. The post is from 2016, I'm sure the situation has change since then.

How to Register your 8% Lower Receiver in California – Bullseye Bishop

CarbideBob · Oct 29, 2018

Would I shit-can the EEs doing such?
Not so sure and probably very doubtful unless I had previously let them know this was way off limits.
For sure all involved would get the "Come into my office and close the door".
So many of my machinist have come to me wanting us to make guns or parts.
I have said no to this more times that anything in my life.

Question to Jetrocket, what is your position in the chain of command? One bad heartbeat from the top and in charge of these guys?
Bob

Jetrocket · Oct 29, 2018

CarbideBob said:
Would I shit-can the EEs doing such?
Not so sure and probably very doubtful unless I had previously let them know this was way off limits.
For sure all involved would get the "Come into my office and close the door".
So many of my machinist have come to me wanting us to make guns or parts.
I have said no to this more times that anything in my life.

Question to Jetrocket, what is your position in the chain of command? One bad heartbeat from the top and in charge of these guys?
Bob

Title is Operations Manager but yes these guys are my responsibility. I’d like to let one go and suspend the other until the owner returns to review but with business projected to pick up soon I’m sure the owner does not want to make big changes. Stuck between an ethical and business decision.

I’ve got 2 printouts of the current California law regarding completing 80% receivers for these guys to read while they try to explain what exactly was going through their minds when they came up with this plan.

Should I have someone else present while talking with them?

Whysosharp · Oct 29, 2018

I would have HR present nothing is scary than the cold dead stare of one of them types

Milland · Oct 29, 2018

I'd also be concerned that this may not be the first time they've pulled this stunt. Do you have concerns if they've completed weapons already? Perhaps you should check into this...

Hodge · Oct 29, 2018

One point of interest. I seem to recall the op mentioning employees having the option of doing personnel projects on their on time from a previous post. Not condoning doing anything unlawful at all but that could have opened the door just enough for them to think it semi acceptable.

Jetrocket · Oct 29, 2018

Hodge said:
One point of interest. I seem to recall the op mentioning employees having the option of doing personnel projects on their on time from a previous post. Not condoning doing anything unlawful at all but that could have opened the door just enough for them to think it semi acceptable.

We do allow personal projects but they need to ask not just show up. We would typically ask what it is they are wanting to work and on what machine. To be honest we might have allowed it since we did not know much about the new laws and if it was like 1 or maybe 2 but since finding them at the shop like that I have learned that this not something we would never want to be involved in.

I wonder if California’s DOJ would even give 10 serial numbers to one person... seems like a strange amount for personal use.

Got a fun one for you guy's

Aluminum

Stainless

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Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Titanium

guest

Guest

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Diamond

Stainless

Aluminum

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