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  1. #21
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    If we are throwing used CNC lathe experiences out there:
    I have a 2000 Okuma/Howa HL20 that I paid less than $10k for. I have had it 5 years.
    And, it is the only used machine I have owned that has never needed anything. Zip.
    I keep the way-lube full. It makes chips. That's it.
    The possibility of that happening with a 20 year old haas is pretty much zero.

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  3. #22
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    I have heard a lot about older Mazaks being workhorses (T+ controller I believe). I know a large swiss shop that has a big mazak 2 turret 2 spindle lathe MSY. They only have 2 of them and both different sizes. One had a broken controller for 3 weeks and they had to put the work ono the bigger machine that they are selling. I guess if you dont have a bunch of Mazaks in house service can suffer a bit. Still dont know if that machine is fixed and it has been 8 weeks now.

    I look at older Okuma's from time to time and they look like workhorses. Not pretty at all but sure has heavy iron and holds tolerance from what I hear.

    I know some Okuma lathes in some of my Aerospace shops. I guess its good enough for them where others are not.

    Thanks for the 2008 and older heads up on Haas. Haas has 3 training facilities in 3 directions from my shop between 20-30 miles each way. If I had a few mills I am sure Hiring help wouldnt be too hard. I dont really hear much good news from the lathes though.

    Ford, Chevy, Dodge thing though. Some work great for some and not for others.

    I am 1 mile from Starrett so any salesman who goes to see them also stops by my place. I get people like this all the time.

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  5. #23
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    The last thing you want is a Machine salesmen coming to your shop and TELLING you what you need cause 99.9999% of the time he is wrong. There is absolutely no reason to have one in your shop until your ready to buy, and the only reason for that is to negotiate a deal.
    I been doing this for 30 years and never once has a salemen sold me on there product. I listen to what real machine shops run listen to friends and customers that own and run the machines.
    on the note of used lathes, I have 3 a Miyano I got for 5k a citizen with a sub spindle and live tools I for got 2k and a methods slant 50 I got for 7k.
    the Miyano has been doing a job for 5 weeks that is a + or - .0001 IE .0002 Tenths tolorance. the citizen repeats .0001 all day everyday. the slant we just did a + or - .0002 job on it and it only scrapped one piece the slant is running under 1" work now and works fine.
    There slow but the repeat day in and day out. Thats all I care about is good parts speed is over rated I had issues with the Miyano for years not starting or kicking on or off in the middle of the night. finally figured it out. it was gummed up sealed relays so I replaced all 20 of them been running fine since.

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  7. #24
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    i'd just keep your eyes peeled on the market and auctions....have our 3rd machine heading to the floor for basically scrap price. ya there has been some hurldes and repairs but either you have time or money to throw at putting a shop together. if you have time check around if you have money go out and buy a new spindle. gotta love putting the first job on the machine and having it paid for. also helps when you have transport and rigging covered in house. i'd prefer to have all Haas' but like others have said the $$$ they bring for 10 yr old machines is crazy sometimes loony...

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  9. #25
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    So, wha'dja buy?


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  10. #26
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    I needed a small turning center about 5 years ago and picked up a 2000 SL10 at a vary good price and its ran great for me ,, but I needed a tail stock so I got a new ST15 with a bar feeder about a year ago ,,, I just use it for 1 1/2" max stock and its been great, Its not got the power my old mori turning center does but its vary east to setup and work with the control and it runs non stop with the feeder,, so yes it might take a couple more passes to get a part turned down to size ,, but it holds size well and has "ZERO" problems.

    I bought the ST15 with the full understanding that it was not a power house and was not a bad ass box way turning center,,, Its light, easy to setup and spits out parts all day long ..

    Best of all its not a Fanuc control ...

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    So, wha'dja buy?


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I wasnt in the market to buy anything but I did get some good feedback from him. He definitely wasnt trying to up sell anything. Anything 10+ years old is going to have issues at some point and cannot be cheaply fixed but can be fixed. He said buying a used machine can be a good deal but If anything breaks and needs to be fixed it could end up costing more than the money you save buying used.

    Everything was straight forward as far as machine capabilities go. They can get a brand new machine in 3 weeks after deposit. I thought maybe 2-3 months so I was a little surprised.

    He said its not an Okuma or a Mori and it doesnt need to be. They all have their place which I already know. Also the higher end machines are starting to dumb down their machines to get a better price point for the non aerospace manufacturers. I guess there is a decent gap in capabilities from a base model Haas and an aerospace grade lathe and price gap is very big.

    Free training at the HFO in CT anytime for my employees.

    I felt like this guy was legit. Didnt try to make any sales but tried to find out what would best suit my workload. I know if I spent $80k on a lathe It wouldnt be a Haas. If I spent 25-30k and it was dependable for basic 2 axis work I may be in the market in the next year. If I spent more than 45-50K I would look at something else and worry that 3 months after I bought it I would have buyers remorse and feel like I should have gotten a better one for more money.

    Haas is more of a mill company clearly. If I had a specific product line I needed a machine for I would look at this route. As a job shop I feel I would need to spend more like 60-100k on some heavier iron. I only run a little aerospace stuff but nothing hard to do. More of a paperwork mess than machining. I dont have a problem doing more aero work so I have that in mind when looking at lathes.

    He did kind of turn me off on the 2 lathes I saw on ebay with bar feeders. I believe they were 20-25k each. Clean but old. He mentioned if I needed a drawbar for it they would sell me a new spindle for a lot more. If it was newer they could sell me a drawbar. These costs can add up fast and makes it more comforting spending more on something newer due to cost savings (or lack there of).

    If going used he said stay under 10 years old.

    Western MA rep and CT name is Dan. He is new to MA as of Jan 1. Nice guy and very knowledgeable.

  12. #28
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    It's cool when you meet a good rep isn't it? The smart ones know if they shoot straight and help with your questions, when you decide to buy a new machine you'll at least consider them. We have a very good haas rep, applications guy, and repair tech in our area. That's one reason there is a 6 month old TL2 sitting on our floor. Other than the pendant arm not having a movable joint in it on the new models and the coolant trap at the back of the spindle not being able to keep up if shooting a full blast of coolant into the spindle, the machine has been fantastic.

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
    It's cool when you meet a good rep isn't it? The smart ones know if they shoot straight and help with your questions, when you decide to buy a new machine you'll at least consider them. We have a very good haas rep, applications guy, and repair tech in our area. That's one reason there is a 6 month old TL2 sitting on our floor. Other than the pendant arm not having a movable joint in it on the new models and the coolant trap at the back of the spindle not being able to keep up if shooting a full blast of coolant into the spindle, the machine has been fantastic.
    I always knew the service was good and many youtube videos and lots of training centers all over at vocational/trade schools in my area is a plus for the business.

    My issue is when I get a cnc lathe it wont be for the work I currently have. It will be for the work I cannot do on my Brown and Sharpes. I did see recently a bunch of low quantity SS fittings that would be great for an entry level cnc lathe. I can run them with 2-ops currently but drilling .500"+ dia. 2.5 - 3" deep can be a pain in the ass and would be great with through tool coolant. As far as right now thats the only thing a cnc lathe would do for me. I cannot justify spending the money on one to make 50-100-200-600 parts every 3 months. I would never get my money back that way. If I were to supplement those jobs with other work that I cannot run on my B+S it would make more sense to go CNC. I just am not there yet.

    I know if I had one I would get the work very easily as my network on the east coast is very big and every machine shop is at max cap. right now. I am just not quite ready to make the jump. I in no way want to take on debt for this but I can understand putting 50k down on a 100k machine. Or having 2 years worth of payments in escrow ready to go so I can just concentrate on making parts and put a lot more towards the principal at the end of the tax year after I get the cash flowing to get it paid off ASAP.

  14. #30
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    It's not often that you can justify a machine on it's own when breaking into a different market.
    It can take a cpl of years for it to pencil out finally.
    And may never happen sometimes.

    Other times - you realize quickly that it should have been a LOOOONG time ago.

    Good luck with your decision.


    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  16. #31
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    Most of the "competition" years ago went to Swiss route for screw machines. Maxing out at 1.24" (32mm) O.D.

    I see a good chunk of work for the 1"-2" range. I think it is due to Davenports taking .750" and under jobs and swiss guys going to 1.25"

    I do feel like I could get my money back fairly quick but I have my no debt policy and I need to keep myself to that policy to sleep good at night.

    The time will come I am sure. I would at some point like to get a mill dept and hire 2-3 guys to run a cell. I feel like I could find a machine op and programmer in the local market as well. Might be better to go Haas here for the employee factor. There are a lot of Haas training programs around and Gilroy making his youtube videos is always interesting to the younger workforce. Its is a good marketing campaign from Haas for sure on that. Ill give them credit for that business model for sure.

    Its hard to find any decent help for under
    $20/hr around here.

  17. #32
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    Programming the Haas lathe control is super easy ,,, Lathe is only a simple two axis with X and Z and most 90% of a normal part is "cook Book" programming ,, Meaning its done with canned cycles and I have found making up some paper cards with the canned cycles for things like drilling , tool changes , threading and even OD and ID turning can all be done with just a couple lines of code,, After you write out the cards is just changing the numbers for your part, Back about 10 or so years ago Haas make some really good programming manuals for turning and you can find copy's online or just buy old manuals off Ebay .. It might be a good idea to get some manuals and just play around with hand writing some code for some drawings, At first it well be kind of overwhelming, but after you get how the canned cycles work and how to layout a program you well see why I call it "Cook booking"
    The learning curve for 2 axis lathe is hours ,, not days.

    I think trying to learn a cad/cam program for lathe work is way harder than just spending a little time and learning to do it by hand. 90% of my lathe programs I write at the control. The 10% I do on the computer is more of a being lazy and not wanting to stand up. and its faster to use a normal keyboard than the Haas control to type.

    Other upside to Haas is once you learn the control you can jump back and forth from milling to turning and they work the same ,,

  18. #33
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    I was going to give yo a long story about how pleased I have been with Haas over the past 25 years since we purchased out first new Haas CNC. A machine that has run pretty much every day since it hit the floor. We have an older 91 mill we bought used, at 29 years old it too still runs every day.
    SL-20...1998, bought new 22 years ago, you guess it runs every day. Our first Haas CNC lathe.
    The SL machines were good, we have 3, the St-s are better, we have 2.

    Yes older machines is the processor board goes you will have to go outside of Haas to have fixed or pay 15k for Haas to "UPGRADE". First huge mistake for them in my book. But you still have the outside fix option.

    As you can tell I am a Haas fan...but highly doubt I would buy anything more then a basic 2 axis lathe or 3 axis mill with rotary 4th. Their machine are just barely robust enough to handle the basics...I cannot fathom what they are like if tooling was hung off even further from center.

    With a Haas you will take an extra roughing pass or two if you want good looking, accurate work and keep the tooling alive. that is due to a lack of power and rigidity. Is what it is and that is why they are a "relatively" inexpensive machine.

    On the up side, for a "relatively" good price you get a machine capable of holding a few tenths in whatever material you want to machine with good finishs. The machines are "simple" to program on a VERY user friendly control. Learn one control and you can run pretty much ANY Haas Machine. Try that with another brand...hell even withing other models of the same brand controls can be different.
    I run mostly Bar pullers with parts catchers, but have one machine with Haas bar feeder. Its nice to stack up 6 bars and stop by to unload parts every few hours. Its an older model feeder...slow and steady.

    Tailstock being off...anyone check the machine level? The ones i have with tailstock came in right on...we managed to knock them out...but they came in right.

    IF I have a problem, calling Haas gets a resonse in short time compared to other brands I have dealt with. I said problem...it could be a programming problem, a call to help trouble shoot, a problem setting something up or scheduling a service call.
    In my area they are aces. I've had a service tech on the phone at 5pm when they close and he stayed late to walk me through an issue setting up a 4th axis I needed to get running. Yes, I'm a fan.

    We had taken in a screw machine house some years ago.
    CNC lathes run no where as fast as screw machines...but they setup much faster and much more flexible. Some jobs we ran on the CNC's transferred to the screw machines saving us a ton of time and money...other jobs that caused the screw machines headaches ran fantastic on the CNC. Some ran so good the clients gave us a whole lot more work suitable to the CNC's we had...so much so we had to put additional machines on the floor to handle the extra work. They also happily paid more for the better quality work provided.

    Just saying...A CNC can open new doors to more work you may not even know is available.

    When I was looking at used machines...when I found a maybe, I'd call the service/tech support and ask a few questions about the machine, what parts cost. Some companies I could not get a hold of and they would not return calls, others didn't want to be bothered. Haas asked for the serial numbers and ran a report on any service done to the machine...went over usual issues, what I might want to look for...

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  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post

    Just saying...A CNC can open new doors to more work you may not even know is available.

    When I was looking at used machines...when I found a maybe, I'd call the service/tech support and ask a few questions about the machine, what parts cost. Some companies I could not get a hold of and they would not return calls, others didn't want to be bothered. Haas asked for the serial numbers and ran a report on any service done to the machine...went over usual issues, what I might want to look for...
    I could not agree more. When I started my shop the very first thing was a VMC. Then a CNC lathe. No way could I have gotten the work without them.

    As far as your experience with other machines, I have to begrudgingly agree. When I worked at Doosan I made a decision that any Doosan owner would get free training at our facility regardless of new/used. That got me some dirty looks although they eventually saw the wisdom.


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