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  1. #21
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    If ACA is overturned or thrown out does anyone actually expect healthcare insurance prices to go down?
    If so I wonder how long you have been writing these checks.
    The price will go up as it has always done.
    This will just give a whole nother set of excuses for price raises. The upward march will continue, changes to the law just make it happen faster.
    Learn from history.
    Bob

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    If ACA is overturned or thrown out does anyone actually expect healthcare insurance prices to go down?
    If so I wonder how long you have been writing these checks.
    The price will go up as it has always done.
    Bob
    All it takes.. is to remove the Monopoly regulation ...and let innovative insurerers back into the market. Same as any other field that HAD been competitive, but was handed-over to fewer providers that no longer had to compete.

    I had my healthcare plan for 20 years through the Society for Technical Communication. Member benefit as an affinity group. Lots of memberships leveraged the size of the member pool to cut group insurance deals. Many were bigger than large companies. Most were MUCH larger than small companies

    A few Chruch groups are all that was left out of what was once a significant alternative in the market. Folks could shop for coverage the way THEY wanted it, not the way a gang of criminals wanted it.

    It could be so again.

    Except Obamacare made it illegal so as to FORCE everyone to the big players in the ACA.

    And then they cut out whole States and Counties where they didn't see enough profit?

    Dumbasscraptics LOVE it up the economic arse! Signals virtue!

    Nice house Obama has, BTW. Should be open for public tours, given how it was paid for.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    All it takes.. is to remove the Monopoly regulation ...and let innovative insurerers back into the market. Same as any other field that HAD been competitive, but was handed-over to fewer providers that no longer had to compete.

    I had my healthcare plan for 20 years through the Society for Technical Communication. Member benefit as an affinity group. Lots of memberships leveraged the size of the member pool to cut group insurance deals. Many were bigger than large companies. Most were MUCH larger than small companies

    A few Chruch groups are all that was left out of what was once a significant alternative in the market. Folks could shop for coverage the way THEY wanted it, not the way a gang of criminals wanted it.

    It could be so again.

    Except Obamacare made it illegal so as to FORCE everyone to the big players in the ACA.

    And then they cut out whole States and Counties where they didn't see enough profit?

    Dumbasscraptics LOVE it up the economic arse! Signals virtue!

    Nice house Obama has, BTW. Should be open for public tours, given how it was paid for.
    Its easy to prove, just offer to pay cash.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Green View Post
    Its easy to prove, just offer to pay cash.
    We do exactly that.

    Then file the invoice with our insurer, later. Just not in the USA.

    Spent 11 days in ICU, Adventist (Private, not Government) Hospital?

    HKD$ 58,000 onto the the Amex Platinum.

    Manulife, HKG covered all but about US$ 260.

    Years earlier, emergency care in Switzerland. Onto the Amex it went.

    US HealthScare Costs are not remotely sane compared to FIRST World who do not have to carry the Organized Crime / Government (same thing, most days) overheads.

    Not speaking of "Socialized" medicine. "Private", rather.

  6. #25
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    We were getting 10% a year increases in the time leading up to the implementation of the (UN)Affordable Care Act.................in anticipation of the roll out..............our insurance broker kept telling us how lucky we were that it was only 10% instead of the 20% that was initially proposed.
    This thing was costing us, even before it went into effect..........................no, the cost will never go down, whether or not the (Un)ACA stays or goes. (of course it isn't going anywhere)

  7. #26
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    Maybe people would start to care a little more about their health if hospitals just charged by the pound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    We were getting 10% a year increases in the time leading up to the implementation of the (UN)Affordable Care Act.................in anticipation of the roll out..............our insurance broker kept telling us how lucky we were that it was only 10% instead of the 20% that was initially proposed.
    This thing was costing us, even before it went into effect..........................no, the cost will never go down, whether or not the (Un)ACA stays or goes. (of course it isn't going anywhere)
    Well.. we've covered this ground dozens of times, back when Gordo was hammering how perfect Danish HealthScare was, etc.

    But it is unavoidable that as Congress critters take months and YEARS to push legislation and compromise around their racetrack, the inch-hoorance companies get to see where they are going on average two years in advance. Sometimes longer?

    Even if they are not the ones GUIDING where it is going.. which they often ARE - they can make plans to benefit themselves well in advance.

    So they do.

    Competition may not be "magical", but it DOES have a better track record of pulling costs down than rules and regulations.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Maybe people would start to care a little more about their health if hospitals just charged by the pound.
    Ironically, I would be paying less now as I have dropped almost 100lbs, BUT I am sicker now than I was being mucho overweight!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well.. we've covered this ground dozens of times, back when Gordo was hammering how perfect Danish HealthScare was, etc.

    But it is unavoidable that as Congress critters take months and YEARS to push legislation and compromise around their racetrack, the inch-hoorance companies get to see where they are going on average two years in advance. Sometimes longer?

    Even if they are not the ones GUIDING where it is going.. which they often ARE - they can make plans to benefit themselves well in advance.

    So they do.

    Competition may not be "magical", but it DOES have a better track record of pulling costs down than rules and regulations.
    Deregulation and free market competition will always drive costs down, unfortunately for some reason the government thinks they know whats best for us......

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Green View Post
    Deregulation and free market competition will always drive costs down, unfortunately for some reason the government thinks they know whats best for us......
    Uh, no. That's just their standard lie.

    They know what is best for THEM.. which is usually the worse for US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Ironically, I would be paying less now as I have dropped almost 100lbs, BUT I am sicker now than I was being mucho overweight!
    Chicken before the egg thing eh...
    A bit like all the people who didn't have lung cancer until they stopped smoking after 50 yrs of it...
    Fact is most people don't care about their health and that costs $$$$$$, compounded by incompetent inefficient government meddling in healthcare and everything, and an insurance industry that most pension funds rely on, who have to deliver a return to shareholders, we get what we get.

    Sometimes I watch shows like ridiculousness or other stupid stuff on youtube, people jumping off roofs onto a trampoline and landing face first into a wall and whatever other crazy stuff to hurt themselves because US healthcare is too cheap I guess.

  16. #32
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    This morning's news had an illustrative example of why US healthcare costs are so high.

    A Covid patient was in one hospital - intubated and on pain killers - when her doctors decided she needed to be moved to a hospital 20 miles away.

    Now the deal with "free market choice" is that when you really need health care, you're in no position to check prices and quality (info not available in the US) and shop the $$$ alternatives.

    Had this been a half hour helicopter ride around New York or Philadelphia, it might have cost $300. But since it was a private-equity-owned service, the bill was for $52,000.

    Good news is the patient lived. Bad news is that even though she had paid for good insurance coverage the entire $52,000 bill for a 20 minute helicopter ride was up to her. Nasty surprise when she woke up.

    That $52,000 is near the entire net worth of the median US citizen with a high school diploma or some college. It would bankrupt millons of hard-working families. Nice pay day for the private equity firm that owned the service. Another Shkreli-like (look him up) story.

    Congress had earlier planned (as is already done in most every other first world country) to cap such abuses. Bill says his Chinese (Hong Kong) insurer will Medivac him for pennies on the dollar. Don't even need pre-authorization or checking "in network" status.

    Congress backed away from any sensible legislation when the private-equity firm started taking out negative attack ads. There simply isn't any "free market" shopping in cases like this when the patient is on death's door and medical services are dominated by an oligopoly.

    It's also worth noting that the majority of our "health care" spend is in the last days and weeks of a patient's life - when they are least able to do anything resembling the free market comparisons we keep hearing we ought to be making. Add in things like the deceptions of pharma companies in things like opioids-for-big-bucks scandal -- it's pretty clear the motivations of our largest providers are perverse.

    Our history is also fairly unique in having employers pick up the burden -- and then those employers shedding responsibility in the face of rising healthcare costs. While large companies still have bargaining power with insurers (the insurers still skim a lot off the top), small businesses are pretty much screwed. One of the best things we could do to help small businesses and their employees is have a national system of insurance, with low overheads, and then private medical providers competing for the business. Kind of like Medicare. Or, pick one, the systems of a couple dozen other first world countries.

    The problem isn't that we have government, but that our system lets (even encourages) vested interests to buy political, tax, and regulatory favor. Get rid of the hidden money in politics and we, too, could have better health care at around half the price.

  17. #33
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    On demand and quick helicopter rides are expensive.
    In heathcare no one actually pays this bill but it is crazy looking out front. Dad took a two, payment is less than 5 cents on the dollar.
    There is very likely some tax loss deal involved. This is how you do not pay taxes.

    Now if you need to ship 400 lbs of parts out or your parking lot to 400 miles away and one hours counts this is the going price and it does get paid.
    Note that that handful of steel needs no medical people on board.

    In a tier one you can spend 10 million in one month for "high speed" shipping if you get 2 days behind. One wonders where that money comes from.
    Most of these medical services sit idle and eat money. Then when used the hourly cost is just nuts.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    . . . In heathcare no one actually pays this bill . . .
    Bob
    This woman is on the hook. And she has good insurance. Insurer refuses to pay. Private equity firm demands the whole $52K.

    The $3.5 trillion and 18% of GDP we spend on healthcare has to come from somewhere. As in you and me.

    Back when I got cancer years ago -- with good (Blue Cross) and $$$ private coverage through my small business -- it still ended up costing me near a couple hundred thousand. Put a big hole in retirement.

    You're right that on-demand ambulance services are expensive. Just not $52,000 expensive for the 20 minutes. Cost of a helicopter and a sophisticated 5 axis machining center are about the same. I bet a bunch of us would be willing to buy one and have an operator standing by for $52,000 a day. Get two of those 20 minute $52,000 jobs in a day, and we might become gazzillionaires.

  19. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    .... Get two of those 20 minute $52,000 rides in a day, and we might become gazzillionaires.
    So you understand and see all the easy money ....go do it, the grass is so green.
    Since a strong belief that this is a gold mine why are you not all in?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    So you understand and see all the easy money ....go do it, the grass is so green.
    Since a strong belief that this is a gold mine why are you not all in?
    Bob

    Couple reasons, Bob.

    First, interest in what I'm doing has always motivated me. Not interested in screwing sick people for $$$.

    Second, I'm not a politically-connected private equity firm with a billion in the bank to buy up health care firms, jack up prices, pay off a politician or two, and then fund attack ads to keep the rest in line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    Why do I not hear a big republican push to eliminate the compulsory part of auto insurance? Is it too deeply embedded to fight it off.
    Bill D
    It is about protection of tangible property and personal injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Metro DC, crowded, high traffic Loudoun County, I pay a combined $89/month, 2005 Jaguar + 2005 Town & Country. Bit over $1,000 a year covers the homeowners. It was half or less when I was in a rural area even with twice the count of vehicles and drivers..
    (
    Yeah, but you're like, what, 150 years old? Back when you were a youngin' a nickle was worth a dollar.

    The cost of auto insurance in our household (suburbs of Portland, OR) is about $250/month.

    I am disappointed though, I thought it would be appreciably cheaper up North. Suppose the danger of a large lawsuit (property damage, etc...) is about the same up there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Yeah, but you're like, what, 150 years old? Back when you were a youngin' a nickle was worth a dollar.
    Nah. But I remember G'Mum explaining how they could do so well on what seemed so little. The US dollar was still a GOLD dollar until her kids were grown- heavy family costs roughly 1903 - 1932?

    The cost of auto insurance in our household (suburbs of Portland, OR) is about $250/month.
    Higher than that, Metro DC, Fairfax County, VA, even over 30 years ago for my ex.... after the divorce!

    I was the "preferred risk" that had the high mileage and commute. My rates dropped to an annual that was less than hers went UP to on a monthly basis!

    She and her three kids were the opposite! Four cars. Four drivers, all with BAD driving records!

    And yer right, it was the high cost of liability.

    I carried high deductibles on collision on one or two new(ish) cars and none at all on three older ones.

    "No fault" didn't come in until several years later, and then the rates went UP for those of us who had previously enjoyed the lowest rates. ISTR California had "no fault" years before most other states did it?

    As to the "150"? Vintage of 1945, actually. I'm told I was conceived in the great metropolis of Corvallis, Oregon. Have to take it as it was told. Even MY memory doesn't remember much until I was about seven or eight months old!

    More germane, with no job to commute to and no family but the few months a year the wife is here from Hong Kong, I don't run but a small fraction of the miles I once did - USAA gets a mileage update from me now and then off what is clocked at our annual State inspection.

    I also have the luxury of avoiding rush hour even / especially when grocery shopping. So retirees in general probably see favourable rates that working / commuting folk do not see.

    Commuting, BTW, is "herd-like" in time-chunk, has the least per-mile accidents and claims. Folks are VERY familiar with the route and hazards, even see the same other drivers do the same dumb things often enough to be able to avoid harm.


    I am disappointed though, I thought it would be appreciably cheaper up North. Suppose the danger of a large lawsuit (property damage, etc...) is about the same up there.
    Check the rates elsewhere!

    You probably ARE getting good rates, "relatively".

    Metro DC is bad enough! I'd not want to be in greater NYC, Chicago, SFO, nor anywhere near the LA basin!

    ISTR the Maryland side of the Potomac has higher rates than the Virginia side of DC as well, jsut as they have higher crime rates? You'd expect much the same folks, mostly working for the same employers, and lots of us commuting opposite direction to where we live.

    And yet.. there has always been a weird "polarization" at the Potomac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Check the rates elsewhere!

    You probably ARE getting good rates, "relatively".

    Metro DC is bad enough! I'd not want to be in greater NYC, greater SFO, nor anywhere near the LA basin!

    ISTR the Maryland side of the Potomac has higher rates than the Virginia side of DC as well?
    I meant Canadian North. You'd think car insurance would be appreciably less expensive it they didn't have to worry about paying for a 15k ambulance ride or a 50k overnight stay a the hospital.


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