CAD/CAM Design Services without a PE on staff

This is a pretty general question and I apologize if this question is on another thread. I wanted to get a shop manager/owner take on offering design services without a professional engineer on staff. 70% of our "design services" I'm speaking of is just reverse engineering old assemblies and making fresh ones that aren't much different, the other 30% however is the full design process from hand sketched concept to production. I guess my question is, to what extent could I market our design/CAD abilities without running into legal issues with PE licenses, liabilities and such, and is it even worth it to market those abilities if we don't have someone with that expensive piece of paper to stamp the final prints.

In theory you can design anything without needing an engineers approval--it's only when a product is made that
engineering may become necessary. And, as you've stated, a lot of stuff never needs an engineers approval, I know of
at least a couple local "design" services that do not have engineers on staff. They have relationships or agreements
with some of the local engineers for projects that need engineering input. Engineering is a very broad field with many
disciplines. If your range of work is fairly limited then you might manage with an on staff engineer but if you design
products in wide range of industries you will likely need the services of multiple engineers. A civil engineer isn't going
to do you much good if your working on a project which involves a lot of high tech electronics...

Many shops do general design work, and then contract with a PE as needed for
approvals.

Most of our work is tailored to the rail road, so you can imagine the regulations and hoops people jump through during R&D. The owner of my company experiences it everyday and has grown apprehensive about offering any design work that could hold us liable (to the point where we don't charge a dime for any computer work. Most of our work that would need approval is signed off on by our customer and their engineering department. But for any products outside of that customer we are on our own. Understandably, my boss doesn't want to send out an "End User Agreement" with everything we make because it could be seen as a sign of bad faith. I agree with Doug that contracting a PE, and even more so a specific engineer (Civil, electrical) would make sense until we feel the need for a full time position.

I was under the impression that you only need a PE license to do civil projects for state and local governments. The easiest way to make sure is to check with your insurance company. Most have coverage for product liability which should cover any design work.

Good Luck
Sam

AFAIK, you can't legally offer engineering services of any type in NYS without a PE. That said, I've only run across a couple of them in my 40+ year career here, but I don't work in civil engineering.

Conrad Hoffman said:

AFAIK, you can't legally offer engineering services of any type in NYS without a PE. That said, I've only run across a couple of them in my 40+ year career here, but I don't work in civil engineering.

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Same goes for most states I believe. That's why I am skeptical on publicly offering mechanical design services for fear of someone that sits on a committee will come knocking on our door. I'm sure most have heard about that guy, in Oregon I believe, that got fined for "engineering" with out a license, by just suggesting changes in traffic light patterns.

Sam L said:

I was under the impression that you only need a PE license to do civil projects for state and local governments. The easiest way to make sure is to check with your insurance company. Most have coverage for product liability which should cover any design work.

Good Luck
Sam

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Nah. Broader need by far than that. More like the food processing biz or potable water. City or County level is where most of the enforcement of most of the "volume" of sign-offs sit, never mind who the customer is, Hooverment or any other. "The public" in general are meant to be protected.

It is the reality that most any sort of Engineering work can affect lives, health, and safety, small scale or grand.

Society cannot guarantee with absolute certainty that any specific RPE is not a careless fool, simply tired from overwork, or has not merely overlooked something NO ONE knew about in advance that (s)he [1] should NOT have overlooked. But they can at least know WHICH ONE did that, and that they had the education, internship, peer review, exams, thence "credentials" "going in" to have MINIMIZED the risk to the customer, THEIR customer, hence the community at-large. Also shut them DOWN if they f**k- up.

"Perfect"? No. Not quite. Bad shit does still happen now and then, just - we hope - not as often nor "casually".

Common-sense? Seems so. Much akin to wanting those who process food to have health checkups and "food handler" certificates, not communicable diseases nor parasites, Doctors, Nurses, Pharmacists, lab techs to have credentials as well.

None of it is perfect, but what else do we have that's any better?

Now.. pragmatically..

A "staff" RPE is much like a Lawster as "Corporate Counsel". As with a medical "internist" or "GP", their primary function is as a "sender". To KNOW what situation needs what specific expertise or specialization and see that it is routed that way. The hands-on work is not often their own, or at least not LIMITED to their own area of expertise.

These are not minimum-wage folks, and even large enterprises cannot easily nor casually afford them as full-time staff. In a biz that has the need?

NOW it makes sense - and the OP may be one of those. Certainly wise to assess that.

MOST firms with a need must settle for having one or more regular working relationships in place as clients of the RPE's own firm instead, and with RPE's in more than one area of specialization.



[1] Not just a "guy" thing. First one, this generation, our clan, is a Niece, Registered Professional Architect for some time already. A Nephew is about three years back, also heading for RP Architect.

The term "design" does not have the legal implications that "engineering" does. Product design can have purely esthetic constraints, or dimensional constraints, or performance constraints. Performance features require the designer to fulfill an "engineering" function as part of his job, but that is true of anybody drawing two holes with a nut and bolt to fasten them together—and for a proprietary product there is no requirement for that process to be monitored or supervised or approved by somebody with a PE license. You're just responsible for the safe performance of your product, provided it's used within your stated parameters (which should appear in print in connection with its marketing and sale) and then time and the marketplace will determine whether you guessed right.

But if you are offering general design services under contract, you're assuming an actual, legal engineering responsibility for somebody else's product, which is a whole 'nother ball game.

Oldwrench said:

The term "design" does not have the legal implications that "engineering" does. Product design can have purely esthetic constraints, or dimensional constraints, or performance constraints. Performance features require the designer to fulfill an "engineering" function as part of his job, but that is true of anybody drawing two holes with a nut and bolt to fasten them together—and for a proprietary product there is no requirement for that process to be monitored or supervised or approved by somebody with a PE license. You're just responsible for the safe performance of your product, provided it's used within your stated parameters (which should appear in print in connection with its marketing and sale) and then time and the marketplace will determine whether you guessed right.

But if you are offering general design services under contract, you're assuming an actual, legal engineering responsibility for somebody else's product, which is a whole 'nother ball game.

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THIS. In combination, permutation, and extension.

The USA still gets high marks from incoming arrivals as one of the best places, anywhere to be able to novate a new enterprise and hope to succeed.

Among the greater barriers? As-of 30 and more years ago, the USA was NINE TIMES more litigious as a society than the "second place winner". Japan, at the time. The UK was 12th, IIRC.

Does that mean OUR products are a dozen times safer than those of European firms?

Seems not.

But the risk of being sued is certainly greater, and the cost of product liability insurance is but one part of the result.

A massive trend towards firms structured and operated so as to "blame some OTHER entity", evade responsibility, even go dark and go start over under a new name are easily as great a risk.

"Cover your ass" as the prime directive of any business might not be what we "wished for" as we tightened up.

Sadly, it seems to be what we got the most of, though.

Result? Out-and-out scoundrels as suppliers, competitors, and customers alike that will throw each other under the nearest motorbus all too eagerly - even pre-emptively - if they expect it necessary to reduce risk to THEIR ass.

We too-often now compete on whom has the deepest pockets for the most aggressive Lawsters - able to "win" on main force rather than merit?

"Here, there be Dragons", and their price is in our overheads.

A lot of the companies we do business with quite literally have an entire floor of lawyers, so a legal game of "pointing fingers" if something bad were to happen, is not in the cards. Would it be enough to have a liability clause on the bottom of receiver forms or invoices?

I am hoping that if I can solve the liability issue, the boss would be more open to billing for services we already do, as the profit margin for these services by themselves is higher compared to us just making products. He see's us as a overhead burden carried by the guys on the shop floor and I want him to see the value in the work we do in the office.

I am hoping that if I can solve the liability issue, the boss would be more open to billing for services we already do, as the profit margin for these services by themselves is higher compared to us just making products. He see's us as a overhead burden carried by the guys on the shop floor and I want him to see the value in the work we do in the office.

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Maybe one of those sketches on a napkin that comes in the door needs to be sent down to the shop floor to have parts built, just to see how that works out.

Paul

Ask your boss how does a design only office (a design bureau) make any money ?

Also, make sure if your company does a design for a customer, that the contract
is clear of who owns said design if they pay for it.

Think about it this way, not all engineering fields have PE designations. Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, Structural, are all I can think of off the top. Only when a government agency is involved i.e. municipal contracts, etc, is a PE necessary. Private label products don't require a PE stamp. Think of all the non-PEs working for Boeing designing huge flying lawn darts.

Jay Fleming said:

Think about it this way, not all engineering fields have PE designations. Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, Structural, are all I can think of off the top.

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You are looking only at a subset of the overall picture.

More than a quarter of all fields in US employment have some form of certification or required "credentials".

Europe it is far higher, yet. MOST jobs at least have, and many REQUIRE such.

We held title of engineer in 2 past lives and did different types of tasks.

In one we performed power and heat engineering to create the designs then reviewed bids provided from contractors.

Discovered different contractor engineer differently to determine final product but come up with same result.

Some have staff folks and others contract it out.

We required contractor to provide support documents for calculating items such as wire sizes as this matters greatly.

In your case it depends on client needs for level of engineering but you need clients first.

Check with local government business license office first to review how you can post capabilities of your operation based on your credentials.

If no engineers then you can offer "design" services.

Locate a source of contract engineering services where your design can have engineering evaluations if needed.

Much design services as we have read on this forum are related to creating prototypes and models and licensed engineering usually is not required as the client is doing that.

Second is as already posted is to follow up with your insurance provider as you are not alone here so they likely already have a guideline and policy for you that clearly has boundaries of what you can market and what you can NOT.

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Generally speaking, if you are selling engineering services, you need a license. If you are engineering a product and selling the product, you may get the "industrial exemption." Same for engineering that stays within the four walls of a manufacturing plant. Exceptions include things like boilers, pressure vessels, cranes, elevators, etc. "Engineering services" is in the eyes of the beholder, but could be plans, reports, sometimes testimony, and anything else that is engineering "work product" that somebody else outside the engineer's direction and control will rely on.

I worked for an injection molding company for ten years as "designer", never had to have a PE to stamp any plastic part designs. When the guys in the shop wanted to install a small boom crane on every big molding machine to lift 1000+ pounds molds, they asked me for tube sizes, height etc. I gave them estimates with big red letters "do not fabricate or install without PE approval". You can design any product you want, but if there is any personal injury risk, you better have a PE approve it.
That is why civil or architectural always needs PE stamp. If there is any personal injury potential, you need a PE to take the liability.
That's how I see it.

Boy, lots of different angles here. PE here and I can tell you just because you hold "the stamp" does not mean you use it whenever. I like to use the analogy of getting the best neurosurgeon on the planet to do your heart surgery. Can that neurosurgeon do it? You better believe it! Will he? Only in a live or die situation in the African forest! A doctor specializes in a field but can learn other fields and authorized to do so.

A PE stamp is a blanket stamp that covers a HUGE spectrum. Civil engineers can apply for a PE the same as any other engineer. An architect, however, is N O T an engineer and has no authority. They are "designers".

I make this distinction because it is very common to "design" something, but quite another to "engineer" it. In the auto industry, there are "designers", then there are PEs. You need innovative minds to work on shapes and ideas, but the engineer then takes over and perfects the work to ensure the design is sound.

Example, you want an OH crane. You design it up with X sized Ibeam, etc. Then an engineer will either tell you the max loading based on standard practice 6:1 safety margins, fatigue life analysis, etc, or completely override standard practice and allow a 2:1 safety margin, but usually set provisions such as "no personnel within 100ft" and for a specific reason or one time application.

I have run numbers for critical crane lifts but I cannot or do not wish to authorize a lift beyond the stamped ratings on a crane, BUT I can get special authorization from the crane OEM with specific data presented. In such a case, we exceeded the structural lift capacity by a margin of 10% but did not permit any turret rotation or changes in boom length, only winching.

The issue you have in the USA is lawyers looking for a paycheck, which squashes real work getting done. We won't stamp anything that is outside the scope of expertise without diving DEEP in the dynamics of that sector. "can you sign off on a bridge?" Yup, but won't do it.

Personally, I would discourage such "engineering services", even design work. Bury the work you do in the billing but do NOT put "designed" on the papers. Lawyers like to group that with competence in engineering principles. I can slaughter a lawyer in court on that but I don't want to deal with it.

The proper way is "design it", then "engineer it" either in house or outside. However, PE stamping anything comes with a LOT of red tape due to liability so expect to provide every little detail about what the device does. Something as simple as bolt torque can transition the loads in the bolt from more shear biased, to more bending in which fatigue and many other factors come in.