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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post

    ISO or IATF does not force you to do incoming inspection but it does make you enforce that your incoming supplier has a working and documented quality system in place.
    If they do not or you have not checked into such then yes you have to inspect the parts.
    Bob,
    I can't speak for the latest version, but the previous ISO had the attached section in it.
    It can be very well argued that if you're not in control of your incoming goods, you can't be in control of your product.

    But that's the trouble with ISO as it's too vague because it tries to be all things to all men. Hence for Aerospace 9100 is more specific and tailored to suit the sector.
    The photo attached made me laugh - i was driving through town and had to take the pic...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg   capture.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    It can be very well argued that if you're not in control of your incoming goods, you can't be in control of your product.
    Of course you have to be in control of your incoming goods but relying on incoming inspection is leaving things a bit late.

    Reliable suppliers is the best procedure and anyone going just for "cheap" won't find them.

    I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec. Discussions, meetings, production delays and stop are often just the tip of the iceberg. Passing the buck becomes a "sporting" activity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec.
    Have you ever worked in the automotive or aerospace industry?

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    I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec.
    We do this often. If the failure was significant enough to effect our delivery to our customer, we CHARGE them for it.

    Usually this involves the tooling department (that would be me) to remake or alter the part in question. we then charge them tooling for the effort.

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    "I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec."

    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Have you ever worked in the automotive or aerospace industry?
    That sounds like you can give an example of who does it and how.

    Doing after something serious has happened and affecting reputation or image isn't what I meant.

    Obviously when personal safety is involved inspection must be taken up a notch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    "I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec."



    That sounds like you can give an example of who does it and how.

    Doing after something serious has happened and affecting reputation or image isn't what I meant.

    Obviously when personal safety is involved inspection must be taken up a notch.
    It's obvious to me as of late (because I can't keep your ramblings on "ignore")
    that you have never worked in a real job in industry.

    Take your spewing somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    We do this often. If the failure was significant enough to effect our delivery to our customer, we CHARGE them for it.

    Usually this involves the tooling department (that would be me) to remake or alter the part in question. we then charge them tooling for the effort.
    That's good but it probably is only a part of the real total cost. I've been part of the many meetings and discussion that ocurr prior to any decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    "I've never yet known any company to investigate in depth how much suppliers cost them when deliveries aren't to spec."



    That sounds like you can give an example of who does it and how.

    Doing after something serious has happened and affecting reputation or image isn't what I meant.

    Obviously when personal safety is involved inspection must be taken up a notch.
    Every one of my Aerospace customers did this and where i worked previously, the customers did to.
    Since 2000
    And Automotive had been doing it since a long time before, because the working practices were being transferred into the aerospace companies due to cross-pollination of people moving jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Every one of my Aerospace customers did this and where i worked previously, the customers did to.
    Since 2000
    And Automotive had been doing it since a long time before, because the working practices were being transferred into the aerospace companies due to cross-pollination of people moving jobs.
    I still don't know what they did and how they did it.

    I've attended umpteen meetings but always after a problem had arisen and discussed how to deal with it. How much it cost was never discussed in any depth. I don't ever recall being at any meeting where dealing with potential problems were the topic or open to discussion.

    I believe though that these types of discussions are one of the reasons Japanese products have very few faults. A great deal of thought is given to design and preproduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    .... How much it cost was never discussed in any depth. I don't ever recall being at any meeting where dealing with potential problems were the topic or open to discussion.
    .
    In the auto world often a team is assigned to assess the cost involved and issue the cost recovery to the vendor.
    Identifying and ranking the risk of potential problems from both outside and inside is the PFEMA process. This is ISO and IATF required from the design or engineering team.
    Any change to the process inside or out requires this to be done again or updated.
    Due to the work involved this is sometimes why it is so hard to change anything once carved in stone even if it saves money or usable but out of spec parts.
    For a small batch outside but workable you get a deviation written which is also like pulling teeth as some simply will not sign the document and take any risk.

    To me this and the meetings are just part of life, SOP and strange that you have never run into it and the arguments that get heated......... You must have lived a charmed life in QA/QC.
    Bob

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    I've been part of the many meetings and discussion that ocurr prior to any decision.
    I'm sure you have.

    I don't do meetings, I do WORK.

    The meeting people have their schedule, I have mine.

    I;m actually going to agree with another poster that thinks you've never had a real job and are gueSsing at what actually happens in the world of PROFIT GENERATING COMPANIES.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    For a small batch outside but workable you get a deviation written which is also like pulling teeth as some simply will not sign the document and take any risk.

    Bob
    As a subby, i never offered any parts that were wrong for concession, because i wouldn't admit we'd fookedup!
    So when this (very) occasionally happened we always re-made and supplied right to drawing.
    Our customers had a min charge for *looking at parts for concession* which was between £1000 to £1500 (depending on customer), and that was just to *look at*.
    And i know that they would not accept anyway, because no-one had the balls to sign off deviations - during development, we could have saved 1x customer who had some holes in the wrong place on a couple of parts.
    In the old days when i was in the DO, we'd have added holes in the right position, accepted the parts (with the additional couple of unused spare holes), test built for function/test units, and all would be well.
    Nowadays, scrap off, program slip, pressure on to get new parts by yesterday etc etc.
    It's a changing world...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    ...

    I;m actually going to agree with another poster that thinks you've never had a real job and are gueSsing at what actually happens in the world of PROFIT GENERATING COMPANIES.
    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    ....
    Our customers had a min charge for *looking at parts for concession* which was between £1000 to £1500 (depending on customer), and that was just to *look at*.
    ....
    On one I think Gordaion has experience although maybe not in auto. I do not think he is guessing but just the way things went for him and where he was.
    One should not discount that.

    On two this is a charge that you eat . This is not real money in this world.
    You try to make them feel bad for hitting you but but you just suck it up, put your tail between you legs and own up to not the best I can do.
    If it is out it goes in the scrap bin.
    If I have to inspect your parts and then you do a fix should I charge you for my staff's time?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    I'm sure you have.

    I don't do meetings, I do WORK.

    The meeting people have their schedule, I have mine.

    I;m actually going to agree with another poster that thinks you've never had a real job and are gueSsing at what actually happens in the world of PROFIT GENERATING COMPANIES.
    I could just ignore that but too good to miss.

    One of the Danish companies I worked for bought their biggest competitor that just happened to be a US company.

    If you ever frequent a bar your donating to their profits.

    By the time I was 25 I was in a position that told folk like you what to do. Unlike you I was polite.

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    By the time I was 25 I was in a position that told folk like you what to do.
    Sounds to me like you talk for a living.

    FYI, Nobody TELLS me what to do. They ask nicely. I would never work for a jerkface that walks around TELLING folks what to do.

    But hey, you were 25 and you were kind of a big deal......good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    Sounds to me like you talk for a living.

    FYI, Nobody TELLS me what to do. They ask nicely. I would never work for a jerkface that walks around TELLING folks what to do.

    But hey, you were 25 and you were kind of a big deal......good for you.
    If you believe him you're an even bigger dope...

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    I certainly find that on occasion you have to TELL someone what to do.
    In caps and bold. One hopes to not ever do it but sometimes it is necessary.
    I had a problem once and asked for help directing an employee in a 1200 man shop.
    The employee asked the guy with me, "Who are you to be coming down here telling me my job". He gently responded, "I'm the plant manager and are you refusing a direct order from supervision".

    The guy was alright. Highly productive and a good worker but just did not like having a boss and very strongly independent. Wanted stuff his way.
    Even in a union shop he would evidentially point out for discipline actions.
    That was sad, you hate to lose a good worker but it is a team.

    I do find the quote "By the time I was 25 I was in a position that told folk like you what to do" sort of way arrogant and not respectful so I get the wound up tight and deserved hit back.
    No one should say this to anyone. It is just plain wrong and only serves to starts fights.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I do find the quote "By the time I was 25 I was in a position that told folk like you what to do" sort of way arrogant and not respectful so I get the wound up tight and deserved hit back.
    No one should say this to anyone. It is just plain wrong and only serves to starts fights.
    Bob
    I find it VERY disrespectful to PM.
    This sort of response is not in-keeping with the standards that should be *upheld by a moderator.

    *Upheld because quality only maintain the standards, that Engineering set...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I find it VERY disrespectful to PM.
    This sort of response is not in-keeping with the standards that should be *upheld by a moderator.

    *Upheld because quality only maintain the standards, that Engineering set...
    Thank God it's not a popular section lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I could just ignore that but too good to miss.By the time I was 25 I was in a position that told folk like you what to do. Unlike you I was polite.
    A grill manager at McDonalds?

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