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  1. #61
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    When I need a welder, I hire one.

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    For me I think is your Intuition, If you feel a candidate ays the right word you have been waiting to hear, y and you go ahead and hired and after 4-5 years the employee is still with you, then you are right, otherwise you made a wrong call

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I want to thank everyone that weighed in on this. As it turns out, it was fairly helpful, and I certainly ended up learning more than I had intended. We did end up interviewing more people, and once having done so, the choice became a lot easier. It is interesting to me in the fact that one does end up "just knowing" when one comes across "the one" that actually is best qualified when compared against others. So much to learn, yet... Oh, and we hired someone. So, thanks again.
    ZK,

    It is coming up on a month since the new hire, congrats on finding someone. But it seems this type of question comes up often of how to find the right person.

    In an effort to keep the learning curve going, can you post some of what you have experienced with this new hire. Good, bad and ugly along with some insight on how you will go about hiring the next.

    My interest comes from having to identify, recruit, select and train individuals for specific positions. Unfortunately I had a decent budget and time for this process. It is much different now as the budget and time is not there but the hiring part is.

    Thanks,

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    ZK,
    It is coming up on a month since the new hire, congrats on finding someone. But it seems this type of question comes up often of how to find the right person.
    In an effort to keep the learning curve going, can you post some of what you have experienced with this new hire. Good, bad and ugly along with some insight on how you will go about hiring the next.
    My interest comes from having to identify, recruit, select and train individuals for specific positions. Unfortunately I had a decent budget and time for this process. It is much different now as the budget and time is not there but the hiring part is.
    Thanks,
    Hi D!

    What we've learned... Well, this was "New Guy"'s first week. We agreed on his giving his previous employer a few weeks and he needed to complete his relocation, as well. He started Monday. All I can say about that is...

    WOW!

    We got lucky. REALLY lucky. He's a pleasure to have around, and a pleasure to work with so far. We have a LOT planned for him. I want to make sure that he gets as much opportunity as possible to develop his skills, while helping to contribute to our operations and growth.

    With that said, I don't know that I really have a suitable, real answer for you on how to replicate the results. Mainly, because I honestly think it was partially luck, and partially simply continuing to look for "the right one". I cannot even claim any skill in the matter because another PM member saw this thread and contacted me to recommend him, being his employer at the time. So, in all truth, we would either still be looking for someone or struggling with a lesser choice.

    Your query is not lost on me, though. I am replaying the weeks prior in my head constantly in effort to discern whether there was something we could have done along the way to set ourselves up for success. I simply have not found it, yet...

    I am happy to update this as time progresses.

    We are also looking for a building to move to, in order to continue to support our natural growth. Once we do so, we will be hiring at least another person. Possibly two. So, we are going to have to repeat this exercise again in the not too distant future.

    Best Regards.

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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    All the way to 20 posts without an opinion from the oppressed proletrariat as to how you need to run your [eevil kapitalist] business. Unbelievable.
    I’ll bite.
    An employer is responsible for the culture of the shop.
    Hiring people that fit the culture is the trick.
    Hiring the right skill set is easy.

    I like to ask what kind of car they drive...and why.
    I got a Honda because I don’t like to fix things moves you down the list.
    I have a Focus because it’s cheap and reliable so I can get to work...bumps you up.

    Same answer, different meanings.

    Any one except a complete newbie that doesn’t ask questions on the shop tour bumps down the list.
    I have declined offers because the person giving the tour, who would be a superior, had no idea what was happening on the floor and showed zero interest in what was happening.

    The most innovative and creative places have that sort of feel.
    I’ve never worked in a place that was pure production, I guess those shops need different cultures.

    I have worked in engineering shops that had zero interest in creativity, instead focusing on conservative design philosophy. That simply didn’t work out...not a happy place to work.
    A company waiting for the industry to move past them.

    Glad to hear you found a really good addition to your endeavor.
    That’s got to feel good.

    Growing from small to medium can be a serious challenge.
    It’s way more than new buildings, machines and employees.
    Best of luck.

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  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Hi D!

    We are also looking for a building to move to, in order to continue to support our natural growth. Once we do so, we will be hiring at least another person. Possibly two. So, we are going to have to repeat this exercise again in the not too distant future.

    Best Regards.
    Congrats on the growth! Having to look for a building and possibly two more employees is a great problem to have. May be a little stressful or frustrating, but worthwhile.

    I have more questions for you, but may pm you on those soon.

    Also, glad a fellow a PM'r was able to help you out on getting a solid individual hired. Can't beat the networking on this site.

    Have a great weekend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    Congrats on the growth! Having to look for a building and possibly two more employees is a great problem to have. May be a little stressful or frustrating, but worthwhile.
    Thank you, Sir. It's been educational, fun, frightening, boggling, exciting, and crazy. It is clear to me now, more than ever, that I haven't a clue what I'm doing. I can only divine that Gods are making it work for us. Or space aliens. Or puppeteers. Or dogs. Dogs are funny like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by drom68;
    I have more questions for you, but may pm you on those soon.
    Also, glad a fellow a PM'r was able to help you out on getting a solid individual hired. Can't beat the networking on this site.
    Have a great weekend!
    More than happy to answer any questions you may have, if I can be of assistance. Yes, I am very thankful that a fellow PM member and local small business owner thought enough of both his employee and myself to feel comfortable enough to connect us. It's a bit humbling, actually. Truthfully, would that more people were to act similarly, we'd likely be much farther along as a country. Too many care only for themselves. He obviously cared about our new guy enough to try and insure he landed well, and I'm thankful that they both thought enough of us to have it end as it has.

    Speak with you soon! Still have my email? Feel free to use it, if needed.

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  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    It is clear to me now, more than ever, that I haven't a clue what I'm doing.
    I'll let you in on a secret, none of us ever do 100%. I reflect being good at business is being good at group psychology - employess, customers and so on. Trained psychologists are a best barely adequate with an individual, in a group setting, no one masters it in a group. You do the best you can relying on smarts, energy and principals for guidance (why companies have those mission statements etc). You'll never have all the info or perfect info but you have to arrive at certainty, even though there is less than perfect clarity.

    This fogginess means some succeed by blind dumb luck and some fail who did every right. Its likes its a matter of trying to control and play probabilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    What we've learned... Well, this was "New Guy"'s first week. We agreed on his giving his previous employer a few weeks and he needed to complete his relocation, as well. He started Monday. All I can say about that is...

    WOW!
    Ah, the honeymoon. may it last a long time
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 05-13-2018 at 07:08 AM.

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    I've hired many over the years. What I've learned: First, hire for attitude. Never believe their summation of their skills. Those that are the most convinced of their skills are the hardest to get poor practices un-learned. Education level means little. They aren't going out and meeting your customers so don't put much weight on their grammar. When you've decided they aren't going to make it, terminate quickly. It is better for them that way also. I had a hard time with terminating for a long time. I think I've finally learned, maybe.

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    According to me lot of things matter in that like their experience, Skills and why they left previous job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lissa View Post
    According to me lot of things matter in that like their experience, Skills and why they left previous job.
    I agree except I'd change "why they left previous job" to "why do they want to leave their present job."

    When I read many of the posts it surprises me as to how few background checks are done. One of the first things a machinist would be asked here is "Where are your qualifications and references?" In fact in most cases applying for a machinist job here requires "paperwork" as proof of what you know and what you've done.

    I don't think I've ever known a machinist here that hasn't gone through either technical school or college. It's more or less mandatory and "free".

    Vocational secondary education in Denmark - Wikipedia

    http://hfc.dk/media/252204/the_danis...ystem_pdfa.pdf

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    some things really are different here Gordon

    there are all sorts of complicated restrictions on what you can ask - depending on where you are. for example in Seattle is at the moment illegal to ask if someone has non-felony criminal record. this has backfired - made it harder rather than easier for people to get jobs, but it is reality.

    because of litigation many former employers will not tell you anything other than "yes they worked here from date x to date y" - they will not say another word.

    because of other issues, anyplace i ever applied (in software not shops) always asked "is it ok to contact current employer?" and they were expecting the answer to be no.

    when unemployment was high, some employers would say "we will only hire people who already have a job" - this turns out to be legally fraught. in the current environment where almost anybody who can fog a mirror has a job, the question no longer has meaning.

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  18. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    some things really are different here Gordon

    there are all sorts of complicated restrictions on what you can ask - depending on where you are. for example in Seattle is at the moment illegal to ask if someone has non-felony criminal record. this has backfired - made it harder rather than easier for people to get jobs, but it is reality.

    because of litigation many former employers will not tell you anything other than "yes they worked here from date x to date y" - they will not say another word.

    because of other issues, anyplace i ever applied (in software not shops) always asked "is it ok to contact current employer?" and they were expecting the answer to be no.

    when unemployment was high, some employers would say "we will only hire people who already have a job" - this turns out to be legally fraught. in the current environment where almost anybody who can fog a mirror has a job, the question no longer has meaning.
    It does seem to be very different than here. Depending of course what job you are applying for you might get asked if you have a criminal record and have to supply a police record - if there is one.

    Of course we have laws stating what can and can't be asked but settling things in court isn't common. Probably the crucial difference is that to work here the employer must have a contract signed by both parts. That probably sounds complicated but it is more or less standard.

    I'll see if I can find a typical one for a machinist.

    Another thing is that nobody (legally) gets paid in cash. To get paid you need a bank account and the money is transferred into your account. "Blue collar workers" get paid fortnightly and "white collar" get paid monthly.

    Pay and working hours for posted workers

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    If it doesn't have an engine, don't get too attached.

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    For what it's worth ...

    1. Whether you are paid in currency or not is irrelevent, since the employer is on the hook for various taxes regardless. And from an auditing and compliance perspective, currency, paper checks, and electronic transfers can all be gamed (and have been.)

    2. Lots of work here does NOT have an explicity written contract, or if it does it's effectively unenforceable, or maybe outright illegal anyway.

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    It's a very difficult question. I've got two new engineers I'm training. I interviewed both. Both seemed to be ok, although I thought one of them seemed to be more engaged during the tour of the plant. But, both were fairly strong candidates. (These are fresh out of school.) They have been there 4 days now, I can already tell you that one of them is going to be really good and unless things improve, one of them may not make it through the probationary period. Just seems disinterested and not as self-motivated as was portrayed during the interview. We will see, but I'm not getting my hopes up on that one. The other one though (that showed more engagement during the plant tour) I have very high hopes for and see no reason they can't be very successful. You have to want to.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytn36 View Post
    It's a very difficult question. I've got two new engineers I'm training. I interviewed both. Both seemed to be ok, although I thought one of them seemed to be more engaged during the tour of the plant. But, both were fairly strong candidates. (These are fresh out of school.) They have been there 4 days now, I can already tell you that one of them is going to be really good and unless things improve, one of them may not make it through the probationary period. Just seems disinterested and not as self-motivated as was portrayed during the interview. We will see, but I'm not getting my hopes up on that one. The other one though (that showed more engagement during the plant tour) I have very high hopes for and see no reason they can't be very successful. You have to want to.......
    I'd be interested in a followup to this if you could. I read "4 days" and thought WOW! I would think in 4 days at a job I would know nothing of the culture, fellow employees, etc. I hope I am never in his shoes... I know I know, some people seem to just "know" these kind of things from years of hiring/firing, but less than a week seems pretty harsh. Hope he works out for you in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'd be interested in a followup to this if you could. I read "4 days" and thought WOW! I would think in 4 days at a job I would know nothing of the culture, fellow employees, etc. I hope I am never in his shoes... I know I know, some people seem to just "know" these kind of things from years of hiring/firing, but less than a week seems pretty harsh. Hope he works out for you in the end.
    You've never met a friend of a friend and knew for a fact that he's a complete moron in less than 30 seconds???

    Nobody will be good at a new job in a new shop in 4 days, sure. But basic things like self confidence, inquisitiveness and an ability to learn are almost immediately apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    You've never met a friend of a friend and knew for a fact that he's a complete moron in less than 30 seconds???

    Nobody will be good at a new job in a new shop in 4 days, sure. But basic things like self confidence, inquisitiveness and an ability to learn are almost immediately apparent.
    Agreed. That wasn't just my observations either..... it was noticed and noted by multiple others (my boss for one). However, this one seems to have turned a bit of a corner this week. Not sure if they were just nervous as hell or what. Is doing much better this week though. May be ok after all, but time will tell. The other one though.........has taken off very nicely from day one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I went down a rabbit hole of these questions earlier and thought there might be some interesting insights from others on this.

    Aside from all the obvious and normal ways one judges an applicant's skills, abilities, capabilities, and possibilities, how do you know when the right one has come along?

    How do you choose? How have you chosen? How did it work out? How have you chosen between more than one?
    Wow !! This can be complex. ( I have made some huge mistakes in hire techniques. 3 years ago it really hit me.... The 15 year old I talk about was an accident. ( but a good accident )

    ( important rule - they must be young ( 15 years old is perfect if they can get a ride to work ) my main manhinist started when he was 15 and rode his 4 wheeler to work ) he's now almost 21 and he knows this place like the back of his hand. - at 19 years old he moved out of his parents hous and he rents s farm house 10 miles from the shop and he is planning on buying a place soon.


    Number one question I ask - do you smoke pot or take any prescription drugs ?
    ( then I watch their eyes, if they do not say NO with confidence looking you in the eye they are not an option ) pot smokers...... There is no future with these people IMO.


    Number two question - do you have any interest in being a machinist ?
    If they say yes.... I tell them they have to start at the bottom and learn every detail of the business..... Then I tell them my goal with every employee is get them trained in and everything from cleaning the shop drain, mowing, weed eating, shoveling snow, and then all the basics and core values that make the shop what it is. - I explain that my goal is for each employees to make it to commission pay system by year 3......

    Everyone is different..... So this can very.... Then I explain that this is a career not a job..... And I finish with this.

    I say if you work hard and apply yourself at this shop, on your 5 year anniversary you will get a company truck.

    It has worked amazing for this shop.

    If you / your shop can't get a guy to the point of making you enough money to get him a company truck at the 5 year point you are not trying very hard.

    And I praise them if they are doing great....( not to often.... It's not healthy.

    And I disapline them if they are not putting out like I think they can.

    I also explain the shops history and where it came from and where I think it's going, and I also tell them why I think it's better here then 3M or any of the other big companies that like to suck up all the machinist.

    And it's Been working..... I pay average wage the first 2 years while they are being trained.... At year 3 you better start paying above average wage for your area.

    At year five, you better be paying well above average and occasionly telling them where the future is and what the up coming goals are.

    If you are going to buy new machines tell th guys, and tell them why and how much they cost.... And tell them the goal to get them paid off.

    And explain th muscle the shop has to pay wages when Machinea are paid off, and how much easier it is to get thru slow times if our machines are taken care of and they are paid off.

    I also explain the competition and what they are doing and why we have to stay aggressive and always try to get ahead and stay ahead. ( make it fun, and pay bonus's if your guys are aggressive and they are making your company better.


    There is much more to say but this gives you an idea how I do it at my shop.

    Dan

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