Hourly cost for small CNC mill? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    On can do spreadsheets into the way beyond.
    I think most end up about a dollar a minute. Go down to 30 per hour and up to 90.
    If an employee making the parts on manuals and now looking at cnc someone is already getting paid.
    If outsource and one has employees will that payroll cost get cut out of the balance sheet?
    Here is where many who outsource based on a "shop rate" make a big mistake.
    In the end it is the final P&L.
    If all was outsourced how much of a add on to keep the company floating?
    If all done inside how much does that change the shop rate needed? What is the incremental cost if all the floor space, SGA. rent, taxes paid for?
    What is left .... labor and bennies along with a small tooling and power usage per hour.
    It is not simple.

    If this cnc machine can run 20 hours per week and you are decent at it is likely best to bring inside.
    Bob

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  3. #22
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    Not that it pertains,I like 62.5 pur hour,that some how equates to 1/16,and I can add them in my head.
    Gw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman View Post
    Small aluminum parts with close tolerances on (probably) a small Haas.
    If you are talking quantities of up to 1000, I'd be really surprised if you can't beat your vendor. Check out a Speedio. Cycle time will be fast. Those machines, with the right work in front of them, can make many hundreds per hour ($). It's a different planet than manual. It sounds to me like you're trying to talk yourself out of taking the plunge.. understandable. If you hire a new guy(s) to program and run it, I agree, that will cost far more than the machine. Electricity, coolant, grease will all be pennies compared to paying a programmer and operator. I'd do it if you have the volume and it sounds like you do.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman View Post
    We mostly do prototypes and fixtures on the manual machines, plus some "emergency" jobs to keep production going. No matter how I look at this, it appears cheaper to vend parts out rather than get a machine. Overhead is too high and volume is too low to make it pay. I'd also have to deal with whoever is doing the anodizing. It would give me control over some quality issues that others seem to have trouble with, but even considering the cost of those issues, I can't see beating the price our venders charge.
    If you have the calendar to allow that? I would probably agree that outsourcing is the best option in that situation.
    As long as the mentioned quality issues are not affecting your product.
    (as I stand here looking at 100pcs of a hot part I outsourced, and now have to figure out how to appease the customer, and bear the blame for the blown date, without telling him I outsourced his parts (going to have to run a new batch as they are not re-workable)).
    Outsourcing is great, until its not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    If you are talking quantities of up to 1000, I'd be really surprised if you can't beat your vendor. Check out a Speedio. Cycle time will be fast. Those machines, with the right work in front of them, can make many hundreds per hour ($). It's a different planet than manual. It sounds to me like you're trying to talk yourself out of taking the plunge.. understandable. If you hire a new guy(s) to program and run it, I agree, that will cost far more than the machine. Electricity, coolant, grease will all be pennies compared to paying a programmer and operator. I'd do it if you have the volume and it sounds like you do.
    That is all well and good (true). But, the thing everybody fails to bring to light is: somebody has to feed that Brother!
    If a guy/shop does not have a body to stand there and keep that little gremlin munching? They are way better off with a haas that can do the same quality.
    If the Brother ends up sitting waiting to be fed because of shop dynamics? It was a waste of $$$ (spoken by a Brother fan-boi).

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    On can do spreadsheets into the way beyond.
    I think most end up about a dollar a minute. Go down to 30 per hour and up to 90.
    If an employee making the parts on manuals and now looking at cnc someone is already getting paid.
    If outsource and one has employees will that payroll cost get cut out of the balance sheet?
    Here is where many who outsource based on a "shop rate" make a big mistake.
    In the end it is the final P&L.
    If all was outsourced how much of a add on to keep the company floating?
    If all done inside how much does that change the shop rate needed? What is the incremental cost if all the floor space, SGA. rent, taxes paid for?
    What is left .... labor and bennies along with a small tooling and power usage per hour.
    It is not simple.

    If this cnc machine can run 20 hours per week and you are decent at it is likely best to bring inside.
    Bob
    Agreed!
    I have jobs that make less than $30/hr, and jobs that make up to $200/hr. I am just as happy with the $30/hr jobs as I am with the $200/hr.
    It is all relevant to ones specific situation.

    Having said that (among other things), a simple, run of the mill CNC VMC should generically bring between $50~$70/hr in my neck of the woods.
    This is heavily dependent on the market segment. Aerospace or semi-conductor is going to cost/pay more than fire-arms or power-sports. As will the guy standing at the machine that can competently produce the aerospace or semi-conductor parts.

    For internal stuff like you are eluding to Conrad, if you already have a competent CNC jockey? The cost of the machine is negligible, and I can't imagine how bringing it in-house would not be a good thing (even though my previous post would suggest otherwise). Like I said, this is very situation dependent.
    Now, if you have to add to payroll with a CNC jockey, that is another story! The employee will (should) be a far greater expense than the spindle! The machine is the easy part.

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    If you do go the Haas route, I'd be willing to shoot you a program or two for free to see what you can do cycle time and such. Send me a step file or .xt I can work with...

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    One thing that hasn't been directly mentioned that can greatly affect your hourly rate is setup time versus batch size. If your doing all short run with different setups (as we do). The time it takes to set up vises versus fixtures can vary by quite a bit depending on the job. We tend to look at overall cycle time as just part of the equation. In other words setup time is the same for a particular part regardless of the quantity of the run. So we find it can be more profitable to run larger quantities and make fewer setups as a result. This is particularly true on repeat jobs that previously we were running monthly or every other month. So we tend to look at profitability of each part at it's run rather than an overall hourly cost (like we would with a manual machine).

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    Most of these economic models proposed here seem like situations where shops pretty much know what they have and need and plan to add capacity. For a small shop in this situation I don't think this model fits well.

    I figure that most small shops looking to dip their toe into the CNC world won't at first just jump right in and hire someone to run it. I'd think that the machine would come in, get hooked up, and an existing employee or two would start to figure it out. Really the machines don't eat much just sitting there. Especially if you start with a decent used machine. Then as time goes on you figure out the best productive use for the machine. I assume all the machines in your shop are not currently running all work hours of every day so this would be similar at least at first. Still many jobs may make sense to farm out, being at the bottom of the food chain myself I like that idea, but this gives you some options.

    Nothing says you need to go out and buy the latest swiss army vise either. You could start with an old Kurt, a few tool holders, maybe a few endmills, and much of the tooling you're already using.

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    At the last shop I was running, I had the benefit of working with a CFO that had decades and decades of relevant manufacturing experience. She said "start at $75/hr and adjust based on actual spindle utilization, maintenance and consumable costs, and operator costs." That is for a 3-axis machine that is running one shift five days a week. 5-axis was $125/hr to start.

    Things can get really complicated, though. I know a local 5-axis shop that makes so much money unattended on their pallet machines that their hourly rate is less than mine with a 3-axis.

    Just using machine amortization will look pretty bleak when you break into CNC. But the thing is, the time your people will find while that machine is making parts can make up a lot of that monthly payment.

  15. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Things can get really complicated, though. I know a local 5-axis shop that makes so much money unattended on their pallet machines that their hourly rate is less than mine with a 3-axis.

    Just using machine amortization will look pretty bleak when you break into CNC. But the thing is, the time your people will find while that machine is making parts can make up a lot of that monthly payment.
    ^^^^ in red
    Damn straight they can! So many variables.
    It seems everybody always asks for a cut&dry answer. And, honestly, that answer is impossible to produce unless you know ALL the details.
    Right down to who cleans the bathroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Curious, what do you do that only requires 100-300 hours of programming per YEAR? I program full time (2000 hours/year) at my job. Technically, not *all* programming, that includes ordering material, tools, designing fixtures, troubleshooting programs, but anywho, most of my work is making new programs...??
    I would bet personal projects aside I program less than 50 hrs a year, I have 2 vmc's running the same part I set up in them in 2005


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