How to approach an owner of a shop with solutions to constant problems?

Hey guys,

I recently got hired at a new shop, and my new boss told me for being 21 years old I have a lot of potential to become even better than what I can already do. But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups when all the cutting tools, collets, holders, inserts etc are scattered all around the shop. All the inspection equipment is not properly put away, and I find myself wasting more time looking for something than actually working on it. I've been warned by some people it's either his way or the highway.

Whats the best approach if you've come up with a system or a plan to help solve a problem that would not only make the life of everyone in the shop easier, but having more money in his pockets at the end of each year? Thoughts?

YungMachinist said:

Hey guys,

I recently got hired at a new shop, and my new boss told me for being 21 years old I have a lot of potential to become even better than what I can already do. But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups when all the cutting tools, collets, holders, inserts etc are scattered all around the shop. All the inspection equipment is not properly put away, and I find myself wasting more time looking for something than actually working on it. I've been warned by some people it's either his way or the highway.

Whats the best approach if you've come up with a system or a plan to help solve a problem that would not only make the life of everyone in the shop easier, but having more money in his pockets at the end of each year? Thoughts?

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At 21? You should damned well have "a lot of potential to become even better.." or you've already died young.

When you find yerself surrounded by losers and the indifferent don't-giva-shitters?

Just go somewhere else where they already know how to work effectively.
Human work habits are just that - habits.
Those are nearly impossible to change once ingrained. They will FIGHT you, and they will "win".

A more effectively run shop OTOH, got that way because they cared about "best practices". THEY will actually appreciate even small improvements.

Or, as has been said:

Never try to teach a pig how to whistle. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

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Find "winners" instead. Work with them. Become one.

My thoughts..the brand new kid on the block should keep a low profile, do what is asked of him and not make waves. Regardless of the messy situation, it's just poor form for the 'newb' to be on the radar from the git go! Deal with it the best you can and after you have a little tenure you can suggest some changes.

Stuart

I mean ive worked in a machine shop for 5 years prior and have gone to school starting with the basics to setting up. But I do understand and respect your point of view. Thank you Stuart

I'd suggest both previous suggestions - go along as best you can, but keep an active eye out for other opportunities. I'm particularly worried about the "my way or highway" aspect, that sort of rigidity rarely works out well for someone ambitious to learn and get better at his/her craft.

This is speaking as the once-new-guy, who did come in and convince folks that adding CNC capability was worth it in the old project shop. Long time ago and in a university setting, which made some things easier.

In the meantime, hang around here and read lots of posts, when you have questions fire away, but try your best to be clear, with specific contextual information in the opening question. We do best with real problems, not so fond of hypotheticals. This applies just as much (or more!) to the thread title, you'll see a lot of guff when people post with unhelpful/uninformative titles.

Milland said:

I'd suggest both previous suggestions - go along as best you can, but keep an active eye out for other opportunities.

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They are not in contradiction. Stuart's advice was behavioural. One should always seek to get along and be well-regarded. My advice was for goal-setting.

Ex: First stop after I left Northrop was a magically innovative but tiny high-tech Defense Contractor. Learned a great deal in 11 months, had the Chairman, two VP's and the Chief Scientist, my next-higher at the time I left as grand references for many years after.

When had I decided to leave?

Third day on the job, eleven months earlier.

Why?

I was due but two days pay, and it naturally would be in the NEXT paycheck, as not all paperwork was yet posted (pre-computer days).

But.. for those with families, bills and mortgages to pay?

The entire payroll that cycle bounced. Bad checks. No money.

Worse, instead of explaining and delaying those checks so they had GOOD paychecks, even if a week late, they played blind and let everyone's bank put a black mark on the individual's record over "NSF" checks they in turn had written in anticipation of an honest paycheck.

Didn't make waves. Made plans.

Plans made tracks. Tracks made a better record yet, next go.

Being polite, mannerly, and a solid team player as best it can BE played about all that pays-off.

But you still make tracks. Can't boil someone else's ocean.

Learn how to walk the talk. No one can argue the walk the talk.

Downtime stands for:
Defects.
Overproduction.
Waiting.
Not utilizing talent.
Transportation.
Inventory excess.
Motion waste.
Excess processing.

If you model your behavior around eliminating downtime, your checks will cash everytime and no motherfucker, even the CEO, has a leg to stand on.

YungMachinist said:

Hey guys,

I recently got hired at a new shop, and my new boss told me for being 21 years old I have a lot of potential to become even better than what I can already do. But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups when all the cutting tools, collets, holders, inserts etc are scattered all around the shop. All the inspection equipment is not properly put away, and I find myself wasting more time looking for something than actually working on it. I've been warned by some people it's either his way or the highway.

Whats the best approach if you've come up with a system or a plan to help solve a problem that would not only make the life of everyone in the shop easier, but having more money in his pockets at the end of each year? Thoughts?

Click to expand...

You're the new kid, no matter what you have done you are still the new kid and some old fart is not going to take kindly to some still wet behind the ears new kid telling them what to do. They have a system, it may be a scatter shit system but they all know where what they need likely is, in a few months you will too. Meanwhile look for other opportunities.

keep your head down for a while and find the flow. Don't be that nail. But quietly take notes so later on if you decide to do a formal write up or BCA you will have a long log of time wasted looking for tooling. Never go to war without twice as many bullets as you think you need.

You have one chance, one single one. Express what you mean with one clear cut phrase and don’t repeat it. If you say something like you would like to work with order of things, you might be heard. I have missed that chance many times, believe me, my temperament is that of fizzy tablet, but I have also experienced it functioning. Else, move on, don’t waste time with blockheads.

YungMachinist said:

But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups

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Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Next time you are told you take too long, agree and ask if you can take a video of yourself doing a set up that you will review.
Watch the video and make a spaghetti diagram of your movements.
It will be an overhead view of the shop,a scale model, simplified with squares labeled machine, stock rack, saw, bench, etc.

At the start of the video your pen starts where you are and never leaves the paper as you show your movement around the shop.

When you walk back to the same area,do not trace the previous line, but make one offset by a small amount.

Wasted repeat movements will show up looking like a plate of pasta, hence the name.

It might show you need some items closer to the machine (point of use location).

It might show poor planning on your part because you didn't plan through all the items you should have gotten in one trip.

It will be powerful evidence, and not an opinion.

If you have cycle time between parts, go round up all of the items for your next job in between parts. It may take the time of 10, 20 or 30 parts but you are ahead of the game. Don't ignore inspecting, breaking edges on the parts and packaging but a minute here and there adds up. If your set up kit gets used by the next shift, they will hopefully in time, appreciate it and return the favor. It will become viral and change will come. Lead by example.

New kid or not follow his rules.
but you can control your time.
make your area organized, show initiative.
setup another job while the first one is running.
Always be looking ahead and become proactive not reactive.
Look at opportunities in the shop, if something needs to be picked up or organized, you better do it.
Being the new kid you have a lot to prove and the owner has not much to loose.
Show him your value not complain about lingering shop issues.

countryboy1966 said:

Learn how to walk the talk. No one can argue the walk the talk.

Downtime stands for:
Defects.
Overproduction.
Waiting.
Not utilizing talent.
Transportation.
Inventory excess.
Motion waste.
Excess processing.

If you model your behavior around eliminating downtime, your checks will cash everytime and no motherfucker, even the CEO, has a leg to stand on.

Click to expand...

I'm stealing this!

Thank you!

So why not go to the boss with the new idea?

The worst he can do is say no and put you downstream of the fan. The best is that you get a chance to implement your suggestion, it works, further suggestions are solicited, you get a big fat raise, etc. Either way, it'll give you an idea what the boss/shop culture is, and if it's bad, go somewhere else, as others are already suggesting. Eventually you'll find a place where that sort of initiative is appreciated, even if your suggestions aren't always adopted. From your posts, it sounds as if that's the sort of place you want to work.

From my limited experience working for others, startups are more appreciative of workers like you.

The best way to propose a change is to start the conversation with "I have an idea that can save the company money." Then back it up with facts, like documenting how long it would take to find properly put away tools compared to the scattered versions. Also time how long it takes to properly put away tools compared to scattering them. Unless you work alone scattering tools can never save time over properly putting them away in an organized area. Of course some people are better at Easter egg hunts than others.

YungMachinist said:

Hey guys,

I recently got hired at a new shop, and my new boss told me for being 21 years old I have a lot of potential to become even better than what I can already do. But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups when all the cutting tools, collets, holders, inserts etc are scattered all around the shop. All the inspection equipment is not properly put away, and I find myself wasting more time looking for something than actually working on it. I've been warned by some people it's either his way or the highway.

Whats the best approach if you've come up with a system or a plan to help solve a problem that would not only make the life of everyone in the shop easier, but having more money in his pockets at the end of each year? Thoughts?

Click to expand...

.
1) some bosses will say everybody is slow and needs to work faster
.
2) everything is relative, are you slower than other workers ? if slower why are you slower. what are other workers doing to do stuff faster. you might find they are cutting corners not doing stuff they are suppose to be doing.
.
3) scrap rate. i have often had to remind a boss i am not the fastest as i try to do job correctly the first time rather than scrap parts or have to rework parts which can consume hugh amounts of time. sure some shops will say job can be done in 5.0 hours and not take into account accumulated 2 hours extra for each part remaking parts or reworking them cause something not in tolerance.
.
4) i write stuff down or keep a work log. if i make a mistake or have a problem especially if it happened more than once i try to correct things or add warnings to work log so i can learn from the past. you be surprised at people who have the same 2% of the time problems causing 50% of the rework and often take no action to try to correct the problems. a warning can also be as simple as a M0 stopping program with a message like watch tool or often need to reduce feed. by having a cnc stop and wait for operator to pay close attention at a problem area it helps reduce problems. for example if drill breaks and no hole then a tap will break trying to tap it. a M0 at end of drill cycle to ask is drill not broken can help a lot.
.
5) program hardcopy log if i break a tool i write it down. if i break a tool months later and i see in program log it happened before then i have proof there is a intermittent problem. often going 10% slower in spots (2% slower total program time) can reduce total program time which includes rework 20%..... sometimes it can be surprising that going slower is actually faster in the long run. i cannot tell you how many times i have seen somebody trying to save 10 seconds and it actually takes hours remaking a scrapped part

YungMachinist said:

Hey guys,

But I recently came into the problem of being told I am taking to long on set ups when all the cutting tools, collets, holders, inserts etc are scattered all around the shop. All the inspection equipment is not properly put away, and I find myself wasting more time looking for something than actually working on it. I've been warned by some people it's either his way or the highway.

Click to expand...

It's not "scattered all around the shop." It's all stashed by the other guys so THEY can find it when they need it. Be advised when you suggest a total reorganization you will be screwing with everybody's stash... not good for popularity, by any means.

If the boss doesn't see this as a problem, then by definition, there is no problem. Best response is to start building your own stash.

Dennis

atomarc said:

My thoughts..the brand new kid on the block should keep a low profile, do what is asked of him and not make waves. Regardless of the messy situation, it's just poor form for the 'newb' to be on the radar from the git go! Deal with it the best you can and after you have a little tenure you can suggest some changes.

Stuart

Click to expand...

screw that

life is not a popularity contest.

I have never tolerated cabbaging away tools in my shop and neither should this guy

If bringing this to his attention makes you unpopular, so be it


That said, there are some good comments here, even the ones I disagree with, it depends on how you want to go about it

Truth is the other guys do know there way around the shop, and do have a lot of stuff stashed, in addition, they probably have a lot of their own tools, and a lot more knowledge about how to get things done. They can probably read the entire sports section of the newspaper and get a set up done before you can do it.

I was brought into a place[at 25] as lead man in a prototype shop.

First thing I did was lock all the cutting tools up.

People were pissed.

Until they figured out that they could actually get the tool they were looking for because it wasn't on some bench or in someone elses toolbox.

I didn't care about being popular but became popular because I got the job done.


At 21 you have a lot to learn, and in my opinion you learn more by seeing what people do wrong than by seeing what they do right.

I don't understand where this "stuff stashed away" idea came from. The OP stated the place was a disorganized mess and it took him critical moments to find things.

My statements had nothing to do with being popular or not. The workplace is a shithole and the boss/owner certainly knows this, so for the new guy to point that out to him isn't going to do anything other than brand him a troublesome employee..plus, the old hands in the shop just might meet him after work behind the shop and show him where the bear shits in the buckwheat.

It's not about popularity, it's about keeping your job, bringing home a paycheck, and learning the ropes before you flip the apple cart completely over.

I'm probably OTL, but that's how I see it.

Stuart