How do you manage manual vs machine deburring - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I hate non-machining time which is why I hate even in machine tool setting, probing, or measuring.
    On the flip side manual de-burr can vary so much across operators as it is a hand done art.
    This skill or care becomes a bigger problem the larger the shop is.
    Who actually measures and trains people on these corner breaks in shape and size? Most machine operators can't use a file correctly without many slaps on the knuckles.
    No idea how you put this art into the standard work instructions.

    When people say in machine de-burring I always wonder if this is a brush or an actual cutter path.
    Bob
    In our case it's chamfer cutters, no abrasive brushes. Thanks for bringing that up, I should have specified.

    Training is definitely an issue here. The supervisors rely on the current operator to train a new hire, which usually results in that new employee learning all the bad habits while they learn the job details. One of my goals when I came aboard as programmer was to create setup sheets with images and notes in programs to prevent confusion especially for new hires. I was hoping those improvements may in some small way help morale. But I'm also very optimistic and naive when it comes to continuous improvement programs.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I hate non-machining time which is why I hate even in machine tool setting, probing, or measuring.
    On the flip side manual de-burr can vary so much across operators as it is a hand done art.
    This skill or care becomes a bigger problem the larger the shop is.
    Who actually measures and trains people on these corner breaks in shape and size? Most machine operators can't use a file correctly without many slaps on the knuckles.
    No idea how you put this art into the standard work instructions.

    When people say in machine de-burring I always wonder if this is a brush or an actual cutter path.
    Bob
    For me, it is a cutter path- chamfer mill, ball mill, etc.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I hate non-machining time which is why I hate even in machine tool setting, probing, or measuring.
    On the flip side manual de-burr can vary so much across operators as it is a hand done art.
    This skill or care becomes a bigger problem the larger the shop is.
    Who actually measures and trains people on these corner breaks in shape and size? Most machine operators can't use a file correctly without many slaps on the knuckles.
    No idea how you put this art into the standard work instructions.

    When people say in machine de-burring I always wonder if this is a brush or an actual cutter path.
    Bob
    For me I use, carmex back chamfer tools, Niagara 45 deg chamfer mills, Harvey lolli pop, cogdills and spot drills, form cutters , bullnose endmills and brushes when depending on the type of deburring.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by robosilo View Post
    In our case it's chamfer cutters, no abrasive brushes. Thanks for bringing that up, I should have specified.

    Training is definitely an issue here. The supervisors rely on the current operator to train a new hire, which usually results in that new employee learning all the bad habits while they learn the job details. One of my goals when I came aboard as programmer was to create setup sheets with images and notes in programs to prevent confusion especially for new hires. I was hoping those improvements may in some small way help morale. But I'm also very optimistic and naive when it comes to continuous improvement programs.
    There are some guys that appreciate the setup sheets and details you provide for them and those are the guys that will take care of you when you called upon. I have spread sheets and detail setup sheets that are located on the network for the guys on the floor to access. I can tell you how many jobs share a specific tool and how long the cycle time for certain jobs yet it never seems like enough for some people on the shop. I will have guys mark up set up sheet and give them back to me so I can add additional notes to the set up sheets. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it becomes a pain.

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  8. #25
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    If the machine can do it, the machine gets to do it.
    I hate burrs about as much as I hate deburring. Uniformity is nice too.

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    For me, it does depend on the run time and how many parts there are to run. I almost always machine-deburr outside profiles, larger holes etc. so long as the standard deburring tool, always in the machine, can get it. Side-milled profiles can have their corners rounded via the finish pass very easily using CAM. I will spot holes large enough to pre-deburr them, up to around .33 diameter (3/8 drill-mill). If it's a lot of parts I may go back after larger holes are drilled/counterbored etc. and chamfer-mill them with the same tool. Low-qty parts it's a Noga countersink in a hand drill.

    Now if clocking becomes an issue and would require a special fixture - imagine a round plate, ring, flange etc. with through-holes - where op1 would be the face, outside, and holes, op2 most likely would only be facing the top and deburring what doesn't need clocked. The added time in designing, making and setting up jaws to clock the part and be able to machine-deburr everything would not be worth it.

    I think I lean more towards letting the guys deburr holes than deburring edges. It's easy for someone to get heavy-handed with a buffing wheel and make things ugly. In my experience countersinks require not quite as much finesse (depending on material of course...)

    Now, large-qty runs (30+ depending on complexity) I will put extra time in to deburr as much as possible for consistency's sake, plus freeing them up to potentially run another machine while the first runs. The less they have to do to the part the more free time they have, the more free time they have... the better things can be used to fill that free time...

    The limit to this for us though is when it gets to where you have to have special tools, like back-chamfer mills, different sizes of drill-mills, etc., or like on live-tooling lathes where you're probably limited on how many places you can put tools, plus the additional setup time. It can get stupid. Machine-deburring parts can make them look fantastic, but like anything and everything, it's an option to be weighed.

    Granted, another thing to look at is having a deburring machine... for example Techniks' Spinner machine, or even simple tumblers. Have it nearby the machine area, the operator can dump 5, 10, however many parts in, they come out with soft edges and abraded, polished faces.

    It's funny, most folks who have posted in this thread all have different answers. There certainly are no hard and fast rules in this trade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robosilo View Post
    Good points. Yes they are productions parts but typically short runs (>100 parts).
    I use software for programming the parts so adding tool paths is very easy for me. It's also easy for me to see the calculated cycle time change with and without the added paths.
    Do everything you can on the machine.
    You'll also get more repeatable results, and no missing area's.

    Have management bring in more machines, and make "cells" for the operators to run 2 or 3 machines at one time.

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    As already said, get the machine to do it (toolpath/chamfer/spot drills).
    Consistency and guaranteed product.
    I worked at a place once where the owner wanted the cheapest off the street people he could get because deburr is a dirty shitty job, so in his eyes it was an unskilled job which warranted cheap labour...
    I remember some expensive Goodrich manifolds being scrapped for "over enthusiastic deburring" (too big edge rounding/chamfering).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCByrd24 View Post

    Personally it would drive me crazy working 1 minute and then having nothing to do for 9.
    Ahhhh yes...but now even the poorest operator has this little hand held device...a binky of sorts....The last prez we had, mailed these out to all the "poor peoples",
    For Free !

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    Having the machine do the deburing means very nice and precise work. Consistency is valuable. So it can also be great if the cycle time is longer than hand deburing for a experienced machinist to handle it. Good files and deburing tools are a plus.

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    We have a separate person who deals with deburring, but even then we try to do as much on the machine as possible/reasonable. It greatly depends on the part/qty/ and how often we will do that part. Mostly we have a lot of repeated jobs, so it pays off when you take your time with the first batch and program deburring.

    We have 11 machines and only 3 operators. So they don't deal with deburring, they only do what they do best - operate. Since they have average of 3 machines to operate at the same time, they wont get bored. Deburring is done by "deburring department" - that's what she does the best, and this also guarantees the constant outcome every time.

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    Now I have a guy that loves deburing. He can debur an edge into a perfect 1/8" 45deg or 1/16 radius blended into a square corner. Unfortunately he will do that even when a 1 second pass with a rotor-bur would suffice.

    If I let him he will blend every edge on a part into a work of art, he would not give a second thought to the the machine sitting there screaming FEED ME for minutes while he gently deburs. Oh...and he doesn't like large files, even a 6 x 6 x 6 block of steel needs to be debured with a needle file and a light hand.

    Ask him to put a grain on a shaft with a piece of scothbrite...If I don;t check on him it will come back with a mirror finish. This man can polish a turd.

    For him...it is always a machine debur. Even still I must check as he will blend the machined chamfers..

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  19. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Now I have a guy that loves deburing. He can debur an edge into a perfect 1/8" 45deg or 1/16 radius blended into a square corner. Unfortunately he will do that even when a 1 second pass with a rotor-bur would suffice.

    If I let him he will blend every edge on a part into a work of art, he would not give a second thought to the the machine sitting there screaming FEED ME for minutes while he gently deburs. Oh...and he doesn't like large files, even a 6 x 6 x 6 block of steel needs to be debured with a needle file and a light hand.

    Ask him to put a grain on a shaft with a piece of scothbrite...If I don;t check on him it will come back with a mirror finish. This man can polish a turd.

    For him...it is always a machine debur. Even still I must check as he will blend the machined chamfers..
    That is funny, thanks for sharing.

    I worked with the exact opposite. He would take cold rolled bars, straight from the saw (and of course the 'saw guy' was a lazy bastard too that deburred nor cleaned anything) and load it into the machine. OK OK, fine if you are doing multiple ops and flipping the part... but alot of these were NOT 2-3 ops and left a cold rolled finish on one side, low tolerance +/-.01 work, but still, FFS!


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