I need advice for older toolmaker seeking work

gwbolton · Mar 18, 2016

I will start by saying that I had cancer, have kidney problems, require 2 days off work per year for a required out-patient procedure, have work related nerve damage in my left elbow (read-surface grinding arm)and I am 59 years old. So, who would hire me?
Without reading any further, I'll bet most of you are saying no way, sorry but that position has been filled. Thanks anyway.

The reality is, I have been cancer free for 10 years, require kidney stents replaced once a year and if I can get a Friday surgery, then I only need 1 day off. The elbow hardly is an issue. I am in damn great health. No day to day issues.
I have been a tool and die-maker since 1974, actually 1979 after apprenticeship. Hands on Tool designer about half that time. I have never had a bad review in all my career. Comments such as - If all my guys were like you, I could retire - Never had a toolmaker of your caliber - As long as we can afford you, you have a job for life here -

I love tool and die, I'm good at it, an artist of my craft. I have another good 10 years of work and more importantly to this dying trade, sharing my knowledge. With all the bills that come with a catastrophic illness, there is no way I could afford to live without a job. I would have no choice but to file bankruptcy or my only car would be gone, then foreclosure, absolute life chaos.
So here's my question related to my dramatic story -
What chance in hell do I really have getting a job and what can I do to improve the odds?

Mud · Mar 18, 2016

Move to central/eastern PA, you'll have headhunters falling over themselves to place you. Honest.

Comatose · Mar 18, 2016

I've worked around employees with worse life distractions. I suspect many here have. Nothing there sounds all that disqualifying, honestly.

What's the other half of the story? Why not stay with or go back to the people who said "As long as we can afford you, you have a job for life here." Or is that the other half of the story? 59, needs $35 an hour, no CNC, no 3d design, no programming?

JS · Mar 18, 2016

Shop Cat, Consultant or a Teacher.

E.F. Thumann · Mar 18, 2016

GW, a lot of people will balk at the low to mid 30s per hour price range you probably want, but it's very doable. What you most likely should be looking for is someone who is an OEM and has either brought their manufacturing in-house, or is in the process if doing so. A young guy who is a whiz-bang genius on 3D toolpath layout, but just blinks when you ask him what a pillow block is; is not going to be a "problem solver". The guy who has designed/built a million little gadgets out in a factory is exactly that problem solver. IE a brilliant, all-in-one go-to guy for management to hand a problem, and just say " figure it out, good luck". That is where major money is.

gwbolton · Mar 18, 2016

Comatose said:
I've worked around employees with worse life distractions. I suspect many here have. Nothing there sounds all that disqualifying, honestly.

What's the other half of the story? Why not stay with or go back to the people who said "As long as we can afford you, you have a job for life here." Or is that the other half of the story? 59, needs $35 an hour, no CNC, no 3d design, no programming?

To answer your questions, unfortunately, the company that offered job for life died. I don't need more than $32 p/h, I'm living with less than that now. My computer design experience is limited to autocad 2000 but 2D only. I am an old school toolmaker, none of that CNC stuff, so I know in these days, that may be a problem.

WILLEO6709 · Mar 18, 2016

hire yourself, start a shop, work for everyone

Jashley73 · Mar 18, 2016

GW Find a production factory that does die/mold production that also has their own toolroom. If you truly are as good as you say - and I see no credible reason to doubt that - then you should have no problem making $30+ per hour at a good shop. CNC or not...

Of course, the bigger challenge might be finding a place with a "culture" that suits you. Sometimes the pay just isn't worth having to work in an environment of assholes, corporate know-it-all's, morons, & slackers. But if you've made it this far, I'm sure you know how to sniff out a good employer...

-----------------------

And just as a side-note, two interesting observations that I always used when job "shopping" was to check out 1- how nice & expensive the cars in the parking lot are, 1b- if there's a disparity between the cars in the "office" parking lots, and the back-gravel "shop" parking lots, and 2- how nice & clean the bathrooms are. Usually, the better paying, and better work-environment places were full of fairly decent cars, and had pretty nice bathrooms. Some may disagree, but I think they've been pretty reliable gage of the workplace...

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On a semi-related note, how does California fare in non-CNC manufacturing jobs? I could imagine there's much more opportunity for a non-CNC proficient die-maker in the mid-west & east-coast, especially given all of the automotive work out here...

Comatose · Mar 19, 2016

gwbolton said:
To answer your questions, unfortunately, the company that offered job for life died. I don't need more than $32 p/h, I'm living with less than that now. My computer design experience is limited to autocad 2000 but 2D only. I am an old school toolmaker, none of that CNC stuff, so I know in these days, that may be a problem.

Yep. That, not age and not some minor squeaks and rattles is the biggest thing you're up against. Partially because most every product these days is designed assuming 100% CNC, so fixtures, tools, jigs and the like will also be designed that way. Arbitrary curves, surfaces and the like don't cost any more in a CNC world, but they really make life rough on a manual only guy. Similarly, there's less and less chance you'll be working from a print at all. I know we have all of the tooling for products here in 3d cad, so any design changes to the base product can propagate through.

The good news is this is pretty fixable. Spend a couple or six months doing nothing in your free time but playing with some sort of 3D CAD and CAM system and you should have most of the basics down. Autodesk Fusion 360 isn't amazing by any stretch, but it is free for personal use and it uses all the same basics as anything else.

I can't imagine not being comfortable with CNC in 2016. Mold work is 100% CNC. A CNC EDM and a CNC mill kicks manual's butt for any sort of die work. Airframes and the like are composites now, so large high precision assembly jigs are getting fewer and fewer. Even die cutting dies are easier laser cut. How have you been able to escape the computers this long?

HuFlungDung · Mar 19, 2016

Comatose said:
Yep. That, not age and not some minor squeaks and rattles is the biggest thing you're up against. Partially because most every product these days is designed assuming 100% CNC, so fixtures, tools, jigs and the like will also be designed that way. Arbitrary curves, surfaces and the like don't cost any more in a CNC world, but they really make life rough on a manual only guy. Similarly, there's less and less chance you'll be working from a print at all. I know we have all of the tooling for products here in 3d cad, so any design changes to the base product can propagate through.

The good news is this is pretty fixable. Spend a couple or six months doing nothing in your free time but playing with some sort of 3D CAD and CAM system and you should have most of the basics down. Autodesk Fusion 360 isn't amazing by any stretch, but it is free for personal use and it uses all the same basics as anything else.

I can't imagine not being comfortable with CNC in 2016. Mold work is 100% CNC. A CNC EDM and a CNC mill kicks manual's butt for any sort of die work. Airframes and the like are composites now, so large high precision assembly jigs are getting fewer and fewer. Even die cutting dies are easier laser cut. How have you been able to escape the computers this long?

Agreed. It sounds like you've volunteered to stop learning about 10 years ago. Gotta break out of that fear of CNC stuff. It is going to be difficult to get hired if you can only take on a very limited set of projects, or can start, but not finish one, or finish, but not start one on your own. Besides that, learning CADCAM and CNC is a whole lot of fun, if you enjoy learning. There isn't a hell of a lot that this line of work has to offer if you neglect that part.

hanermo · Mar 19, 2016

Learning 3D cad, cam, cnc and programming anything is easy.

Its also illogical, non-intuitive, silly, in many ways.
Only needed ingredient is perseverance.

I started, in order, with basic, catia, bcpl, c, cpm, 3d studio, intergraphics, autocad (yuk), netware 286, sco unix 386.
Dabbled in Ada, forth, basics (many), object oriented programming of various types (yuk), office basic. Cisco IOS, BGPL. Advanced routing, policy-based, reverse routes etc. for network operators (I was one).
Soliworks. Mastercam.

Now use Rhino 3D.
Recommended for doing stuff- but solidworks is better employment wise.

Dont have NX.
Would like to.

Learning any cad is 200 hrs of pain.
Its not a lot, in the real world.
Next one is half the pain.

Miguels244 · Mar 19, 2016

Learn solid works...it's easy.
Setting that aside, look for a place that's losing its knowledge, or needs to develop it.
Emphasize you willingness and ability to teach people...that's huge.

Davis In SC · Mar 19, 2016

I think some small mfg. co. would like to find you. Many of them are sending the big complex jobs out, but they seldom work right... Often need a common sense old-school toolmaker to de-bug the tools and make them run. That is my specialty in my small shop... Final grooming of molds, as well as repairs. Us old school guys can whip out a fixture before most companies could have it designed. There is still a place for your skills. I advise targeting small manufacturing companies, rather than machine shops. Bench and fitting skills are still needed, as well as the ability to troubleshoot. You will never go head to head with the CAD-whiz guys, but focus on your abilities..

CarbideBob · Mar 19, 2016

gwbolton said:
What chance in hell do I really have getting a job and what can I do to improve the odds?

Try mostly smaller shops. IE: less than 50 people. .
I would not pay you 30 as that is high here but I'd give you a shot at what may seem a poopy starting rate.
Heck, its best that you know metal cutting and not that computer stuff.
We would teach you our way fast enough and not make you have to unlearn some other shops methods.
Not knowing CNC and CAD/CAM but knowing toolmaking would be a big plus walking in my door.
Bob

Evenglischatiest · Mar 20, 2016

Are you within reasonable commuting distance of Santa Barbara? If so, send me a PM. I have a few leads that might be worth looking in to. I don't have a clue what they'd pay, though.

doug8cat · Mar 20, 2016

I will tell you I work with a master tool maker about your age, and if had any control over the shop where I am, you would be hired in 2 seconds.
I little back ground: My wife worked as veterinary critical care nurse for 20 years,and loved it. Unfortunately she had to stop and go on disability, cause she was spending a week to two weeks in hospital / month. It totally devastated her, her work was her passion. So I have an idea about you feel. I would try work with you and do my best to accommodate your issues. I get the benefit of your skills, and in return you get to come work when you can,and fulfill your passion. Again I am not a shop owner some of might think me soft in the head, but I know what a very few people's vocations mean to them. Might work might not but I sure as hell would try it. If your at all like the tool and guy I work with, you would be a great asset.

BTW I am in the N.E..

Best of luck I hope you do well, a lot of younger owners and such don't realize what your worth.

toolmaker96 · Mar 20, 2016

If you are interested in moving to Northern NV, we would take a serious look at hiring you.

gwbolton · Mar 20, 2016

Thanks everyone. Unfortunately, the company where I'm currently employed is still using 20 year old software. Small shop and the owner is getting ready to retire so it's difficult for him to spend money within the shop. All of the equipment is old and beat-up. It's a challenge sometimes but they have been a good employer, so I am sticking it out until the inevitable happens. I was thinking that not too many employers pay full insurance bennies, keep a job open and waiting and help out financially during the 2½ years leave I needed fighting cancer.
I appreciate all the input but I doubt I will ever get into NC machines, it just doesn't appeal to me. I need to be cranking the handles and squirting the coolant. lol
I also appreciate the leads and offers but I have pretty deep roots here in the High Desert and would be reluctant to leave the family circle.
Cheers

PeteM · Mar 20, 2016

If there's a community college near you with a CAD program, you might consider spending a couple nights a week doing a 3D course. At least three benefits to that:
- you'll learn some CAD
- you'll be able (or not) to enjoy the experience of knowing and working with a younger generation
- you'll prove you're an old dog eager to learn new tricks

All good things to have in hand when/if you decide to move to another job.

JS · Mar 20, 2016

Public utilities or a mine somewhere are another options. It's not T&D work, but if you can do make good bread for doing repair work...

I need advice for older toolmaker seeking work

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