Industry 4.0 -- Anyone on the bandwagon? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    My take on it has been more that a machine status is available online, and not only can YOU check it, but my guess is that more aptly - that your customer can monitor this. I'm thinkin' automotive or some other JIC type venture that would rather work around hurdles, as to have a little cushion.

    It could be monitored to know that all is well and on schedule, while at the same time, it gives your customer a tool to beat you down with if it appears that you are making $.

    That's my take on it, but no - I Shirley haven't looked into getting into it.
    I have no intentions of my machines being online in any way.

    "Just b/c you can, does not mean that you should."


    ----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    Unless you've been living in a cave you'll recognize that term right away........

    Has anyone tried it? There seems to be a major push for it from Sandvik, Makino, BIG Kaiser, DMG Mori, etc., etc.
    Is it worth it to have "smart" boring bars, toolholders, spindles, and chucks?

    Yep things like de vibe boring bars that is really cool. They make life in the shop much more enjoyable as they help get the jobs done. Not that there is any more pay for that effort.

  3. #23
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    OK, I guess I hafta ask.

    How does having a boring bar online help?

    Does it just tell someone that it's "vibing"?


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    OK, I guess I hafta ask.

    How does having a boring bar online help?

    Does it just tell someone that it's "vibing"?


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Or that it isn't vibing, but that's exactly the issue that I'm pushing. If a VP/manager/supervisor/lead is constantly swarmed with "on/off", "high/low", "in/out", "hot/cold", etc. data, then it's just as bad as getting cc'd on a hundred emails. You get pulled away from doing something you should be working on (like improving training, process improvement, etc.) so you can go yell at someone for something stupid. And employees aren't dumb. Once they find out how they're being measured, they'll figure out how to create some "data" that makes everything look good.

    Bottom line: work on simple and fast processes that make you go from quoting to getting paid as fast and easy as possible. In many cases, extra technology gets slows it all down or gets in the way.

    The Dude

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    OK, I guess I hafta ask.

    How does having a boring bar online help?

    Does it just tell someone that it's "vibing"?


    ---------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I guess...........

    For the record, de-vibe bars are not "smart". They just have a suspended weight that dampens chatter. That works, it's been around for awhile.

    The "smart" Sandvik bar will tell you (via Bluetooth or WiFi) the bar temperature, vibration level, insert temp, coolant flow, moon phase, operator's blood pressure, and time of day.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    My personal view on 4.0 is that a lot of it is "solutions looking for a problem". So much of it is technology based that, IMO, is kind of "over developed" (way more functional than needed). This is especially true about IOT (Internet of Things). I did a demo tool for a conference that demo-ed some of this and, while it was easy to implement, I just couldn't see must justification for it. So much of it would be due to other shortcomings. Who wants to get a text every time a certain door is opened or a temperature drops at a certain point? To me, that's just indicating a lack of controls.

    Another issue is that a lot of the 4.0 technology is being pushed on social media that didn't exist when things like CNC, PLC and regular robot technology came out. But now that things like 3D printing, IOT, cobots, etc. are coming out, they're all making news via twitter and other social media. I listened to someone do a presentation on cobots and it was absolutely clear that they had very little understanding about previously existing robot technology and the low specs on many of the new cobots (especially Rethink, dang they are slow, weak and inaccurate!).

    I am by no means "against" technology, I just think 4.0 is overall being "oversold".

    The Dude
    Way back in the day I was a software developer and I thought I was hot shit. I could look at an existing technology/process and rattle off all sorts of things the manufacturer was leaving on the table and features they hadn't implemented or didn't seem to have conceived of, etc.

    Years later when I had my own machine shop, I realized that it's not about whizz-bang features that sound cool to rooms full of techies or make for good buzzwords for C-level executives, but rather it's about what actually solves a problem or produces profit.

    We have been doing some data collection here at work and it's amazing how off-track much/most of the major software is. They brag about how they can show you anything and everything, but they completely miss showing the stuff I really want and need to know. Then most of their stuff ends up being proprietary so I can't even just siphon off the info I need from various components to build my own ideal system... and I have no desire to spend big $$ to entrap myself in their ecosystems just because I bought into some marketing wank's bullshit promises.

    There isn't really all that much out there that truly works and so much clutter that claims to be the best thing since sliced bread.

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  8. #27
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    I just stumbled across this thread: Intelligent Toolholders

    Good example....

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanola View Post
    ...Future generations will likely EDM four holes in the corners a name plate because they understand the process allows great precision and doesn’t make much noise. Like my last boss who likes to mill for minutes on CNC lathes simply because it’s possible. He didn’t like my idea of broaching the contour which would have brought the minutes down to five seconds. No, really, industry 4 is the final get-together of the biggest airheads there are.
    I'd give this five likes, if there were some assurance it would in fact be their final get-together...

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    I'd give this five likes, if there were some assurance it would in fact be their final get-together...
    Who says it won't?

    Darwinism at it's finest.........

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    I guess...........

    For the record, de-vibe bars are not "smart". They just have a suspended weight that dampens chatter. That works, it's been around for awhile.

    The "smart" Sandvik bar will tell you (via Bluetooth or WiFi) the bar temperature, vibration level, insert temp, coolant flow, moon phase, operator's blood pressure, and time of day.
    Not exactly. It is intended to be interfaced with the control so that between the two of them they can dynamically adjust cutting data. Pretty much the most recent iteration of previous adaptive control systems.

    BTW, there is quite a lot more to the basic devibe bars than just a suspended weight - that's only one component of the system.

  14. #31
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    There is value to this technology in some applications. Example . . . mold cooling for making glass containers.

    We designed a mold cooling system that put sensors on things that had never been measured before in this application.


    • 450HP blower bearing vibration and temperature
    • Blower fan shaft bearing temp and vibration
    • Ambient air temp, barometric pressure, humidity
    • Air plenum temp and pressure sensors along machine length
    • Mold section active status (up to 20 sections each producing 3 bottles)
    • Air damper/vane position sensor


    And a whole bunch of other things . . .

    Now knowing all of this data we can figure out how much heat needs to be pulled out of the molds when operating at all times, whether they are adjacent to each other, how much heat carrying capacity the air has at present humidity, flow rate, and pressure drop, and precisely how fast to spin the fan to pull that heat out and what is the most efficient damper setting to get the air where you want it.

    Trending this data over months allows the plant to know when PM is needed for bearings and the system immediately shuts down and alerts bottle production to shut down when a bird or rat somehow gets sucked into the fan and creates a gross imbalance / vibration.

    End result is more consistent glass container quality, about a 20% reduction in energy costs, and targeted PM activities during down time resulting in significant reduction in downtime and repair costs.

    Maintenance guys get a daily email digest with performance data noting any anomalies. Severe faults are emailed immediately.

    We have done similar things on custom machine tools for Boeing Research and Technology, some of which has been deployed on the 777X wing fab cell and elsewhere . . . but this is more related to verifying the right tool is loaded into the spindle using RFID technology so that you can make sure you don’t destroy a part and can track tool preset measurements and tool wear accurately.

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