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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_eck View Post
    BTW, our "Quality Manual" is an internal website that all of us can access and update. I'm glad the 2015 version allow us to do that.
    Taking that at face value I'd like to hear more. I'm doubting that "all of us can access and update" isn't as straight forward as you suggest. Who has the final say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Taking that at face value I'd like to hear more. I'm doubting that "all of us can access and update" isn't as straight forward as you suggest. Who has the final say?
    Why doubt it Gordon? And 2015 does allow you do not have a manual (although I don't like the idea).
    I do think the OP needs to look at what he appears to have which is many different processes and streamline them though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Why doubt it Gordon? And 2015 does allow you do not have a manual (although I don't like the idea).
    What I doubt is "all of us can access and update". Taken at face value then everything can be changed by all. That's why I also asked who has the final say. All can access makes sense but all can update doesn't. There must be some kind of acceptance and coordination.

    All I'm saying is that it can't be as simple as posted.

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    How about just using quality as your reputation? Spend 100 grand on a guy that his only job is to make sure that ALL the parts are to spec? Reputation and a name. Henry Ford. ISO is to sell abroad to Euro specs. Just put out quality and you will get the business. Even though Ford has fallen to cheap, it doesn't mean that you have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G code View Post
    How about just using quality as your reputation? Spend 100 grand on a guy that his only job is to make sure that ALL the parts are to spec? Reputation and a name. Henry Ford. ISO is to sell abroad to Euro specs. Just put out quality and you will get the business. Even though Ford has fallen to cheap, it doesn't mean that you have to.
    If only things were that simple. ISO isn't about making quality. It is about being able to document what you do and how you do it to the customers that find this important.

    Re your "Spend 100 grand on a guy that his only job is to make sure that ALL the parts are to spec." then is he going to be making them too? To me that's a bit like 100% inspection on a box of matches. "Yes they were all OK".

    True story. A salesman for a Portuguese company told me, without a smile, that their best product was hand grenade casings. They'd never had a complaint.

    As to "ISO is to sell abroad to Euro specs." then where on earth did you get that idea? I suggest you Google and find out where QA comes from. I hope you're not shocked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    An ISO auditor once told me that the best manual was a one page, then when you compromise it's a two page and so-on. The larger you make it, the more people won't read it.
    So you're telling me a one-page manual guarantees quality? I think what you've told me is that you've "abided" (or should have) by the easiest way possible, just so you can have more sales. I didn't see anything in your post that supports a certified QMS as ensuring good quality, or even good procedures.

    I think you completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that you can't "play by rules" to get more business (although it was questionable whether the OP needed to play by the rules to get more business). I simply said that the rules suck (in note #2).

    The Dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    So you're telling me a one-page manual guarantees quality? I think what you've told me is that you've "abided" (or should have) by the easiest way possible, just so you can have more sales. I didn't see anything in your post that supports a certified QMS as ensuring good quality, or even good procedures.

    I think you completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that you can't "play by rules" to get more business (although it was questionable whether the OP needed to play by the rules to get more business). I simply said that the rules suck (in note #2).

    The Dude
    I was just passing on advice I once had - which was by keeping the manual small, you can then keep control of it and that people *should* then read it ( = comply with it). The auditor did say that the one-page company, obviously had written procedures that ensured the 8 mandate compliance which were referenced to the manual.
    Also, to emphasise, I had no choice but had to get it if I wanted to keep two customers.

    Lastly ref your statement that the rules suck - It keeps you more controlled and focussed on things IMO.
    You have to state metrics that that you monitor your business with, so by selecting specific ones that suit you (such as monitoring quotes won V lost, on time delivery, customer returns etc), it can be a good reference guide to where you are going as a business.

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    It will cost you for the accreditation company to do the audit, they will subject you to microscopic inspection and try to find minutia issues to see if you have your sh-t together, you will need to provide a detailed description of your quality policy in the field you intend to do business in, this can be expensive if you aim high, so keep it affordable, keep in control during this Essential program, the resulting certification is worth the effort, be aware the audit has to be ongoing, quality doesn’t sleep, you need a good manager, good luck, get on with it soonest.

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    Is someone can tell me where in ISO 9000 there's written anything about making good or better quality or whatever it is that is made or done better I'd like to know where to read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Is someone can tell me where in ISO 9000 there's written anything about making good or better quality or whatever it is that is made or done better I'd like to know where to read it.
    Not only that, but the best part is that you can even define your own scope, and make it anything you want! Might be pretty awkward explaining to your customer that the only documented and controlled process you are ISO certified for at your shop is how you make coffee in the morning though

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    Default Make it streamlined

    Quote Originally Posted by spinelli View Post
    Our company is looking to get ISO certified this year. I'm part of 3 management personnel and we'd like to take the company to the next level by becoming ISO certified. We are a small family owned company with 13 total employees.

    If you are certified, did you see substantial growth in work? Or is it just a "label" to make the business look good? I've run into companies that are ISO certified that fail customer audits based on the ISO standard. We've passed all of our customer audits, which is why we question whether becoming certified is worth the expense.

    Suggestions?

    Industry: Machining components for O&G, Mining, Natural Gas, Electrical Plants

    You will write the manual containing the information on how you intend to control your quality inside and outside the company, make it concise, don’t fill it with flim flam and unnecessary text, it needs to be streamlined, powerful, easily auditable and portable, ie all in one A4 ring binder, the full QMS in one book, make the forms simple and easy to use so that everybody in the company can understand and use it, your audits will be swift and simple, just what your customer wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cast Iron View Post
    You will write the manual containing the information on how you intend to control your quality inside and outside the company, make it concise, don’t fill it with flim flam and unnecessary text, it needs to be streamlined, powerful, easily auditable and portable, ie all in one A4 ring binder, the full QMS in one book, make the forms simple and easy to use so that everybody in the company can understand and use it, your audits will be swift and simple, just what your customer wants.
    You've never written a "Quality Manual" have you?

    Also a good idea to replace the word "quality" with "processes".

    It isn't about "what your customer wants" unless of course you only have one customer. It's about describing what you do to do what you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    It isn't about "what your customer wants" unless of course you only have one customer. It's about describing what you do to do what you do.
    But it is...If you're in Aerospace (for instance) and your customer wants you to have things in there specifically detailing gauge control (and your process has to change to accommodate), or a mandate time limit adding for retention of all records, then you have to comply.
    Or not get the work.

    Gordon - have you a copy of ISO9001 and have you read it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    But it is...If you're in Aerospace (for instance) and your customer wants you to have things in there specifically detailing gauge control (and your process has to change to accommodate), or a mandate time limit adding for retention of all records, then you have to comply.
    Or not get the work.

    Gordon - have you a copy of ISO9001 and have you read it?
    Ye Gods. Yes I have a copy and yes I've probably read it more often than you. I've been speaker at a couple of conferences on ISO 9001 with over 300 attending. I've had several companies certified as QC manager and also been in QA with the Danish power plants so I've seen and done it from both sides.

    Some industries are more "into it" than others and that's OK. If a customer knows what it wants and specifies it then it becomes a part of their order condition. That's what you are describing. What isn't OK is a company that writes their QM etc. just to make a customer happy. It's of no use unless it is of value to the company itself.

    Probably the main reason that having a consultant do it backfires unless he knows the company very well.

    Maybe you do but I don't so if you can name just one company where being certified has resulted in better products I'd love to know who it is.

    You question my experience but I've worked with QC and QA for 25 years and almost always as manager. That includes AQAP 1 before ISO 9001 appeared on the scene.

    What's your hands on experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Maybe you do but I don't so if you can name just one company where being certified has resulted in better products I'd love to know who it is.
    Not being argumentative, but a short anecdote to this point. My dad has been quality all of his life, he has gotten many companies certified for ISO 9001 among other certifications. He has managed little mom & pop companies, all the way up to Tier 1 Automotive manufacturing facilities. As a boy we moved when the contracts or companies moved, several times.

    The company(4) he is currently at is owned by a company(3), that is owned by a company(2), that is owned by a big shot corporation out of Taiwan(1). He is the Director of Quality at company (2) and reports directly to (1). He is currently at Company (4) modernizing and updating. They were not ISO certified when he took on the project. He has brought them through certification and modernized their processes. They do, in fact, make MUCH better quality products DIRECTLY due to becoming ISO.

    It is very simple, to my ignorant brain at least. Prior to this point they had no documented procedures. Everyone in the shop did things how they thought was best, in a manner that they thought best. They had little to no inspection equipment, no processes for inspection, and as long as "it worked" it shipped. Fastners that were spec'd by the engineers were not used, because of a myriad of reasons. Simple things like, making a build cart, with all of the specified materials, prior to starting assembly, meant that the correct fastners were used. Processes for when, how, and why, outlined the manufacturing processes.

    Many these aspects and more that were created due to the ISO process, resulted in MUCH better quality products, with less issues on the floor, less customer issues, and less warranty issues.

    Not trying to be contrary, but there are definitely many instances that ISO forces companies to re-examine processes, or to create processes that were not there to begin with. The result, a higher quality product.

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    Almost all ISO companies do very poor customer service, billing, and customer interfaces.
    All telcos are a good example, I was very familiar with for decades in several countries.
    Airlines are another.
    Railways, somewhat.

    ISO usually becomes a CYA system for mid managers and a stamp_to_size wage earning peon executing often nonsensical processes.
    Telco support, it support, airlines support, to name some examples.

    ISO does not actually force a company into becoming regimented, rule-bound.
    But this is what used to happen in maybe 95% == 19/20 cases in big companies.

    ISO is supposed to help document and audit quality.
    But it does not.

    Do telcos trace their billing errors ?
    Do Airlines fix their baggage handling errors ?
    Is anyone responsible ?
    Is there any traceability ?
    In all 4 cases above ALL the supposed ISO benefits spectacularly fail to appear.

    Of course, if the companies above actually had followed and applied ISO practices, and their own manuals, such errors would be corrected, and could be traced, and c/would be fixed.

    ISO is a documenting standard, and mostly harmful as implemented.
    Imo. Ime.
    It adds major costs, and usually adds major drag and weight and inertia in doing things "well" instead of like the "last time" when something goes wrong.

    Most of the problem is not ISO as a concept but the iso $$$ inertia, consultants, and expensive certification bodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    It is very simple, to my ignorant brain at least. Prior to this point they had no documented procedures. Everyone in the shop did things how they thought was best, in a manner that they thought best. They had little to no inspection equipment, no processes for inspection, and as long as "it worked" it shipped. Fastners that were spec'd by the engineers were not used, because of a myriad of reasons. Simple things like, making a build cart, with all of the specified materials, prior to starting assembly, meant that the correct fastners were used. Processes for when, how, and why, outlined the manufacturing processes.

    Many these aspects and more that were created due to the ISO process, resulted in MUCH better quality products, with less issues on the floor, less customer issues, and less warranty issues.

    Not trying to be contrary, but there are definitely many instances that ISO forces companies to re-examine processes, or to create processes that were not there to begin with. The result, a higher quality product.
    I've cut out part of your post to avoid turning this into a family issue.

    The examples you give I've witnessed myself. The cause of it has always been poor management or leadership if you will. What you describe the best I've remark I've heard on that is "Some companies need a very thick QM and it being used for hitting all on the head that don't do as they should".

    If people did what they should just because it was written then there would be no criminals. They don't so some countries have more police than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Most of the problem is not ISO as a concept but the iso $$$ inertia, consultants, and expensive certification bodies.
    Upon finally realising that is when I became disillusioned with ISO 9001. Guys straight from college and university with ISO 9001 under their arm and no practical experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    You question my experience but I've worked with QC and QA for 25 years and almost always as manager. That includes AQAP 1 before ISO 9001 appeared on the scene.

    What's your hands on experience?
    HAHAHAHA! Keep your hair on!
    I haven't questioned your ability at all. I disagreed with your statement saying "it's not what your customer wants". Buisness is all about what your customer wants...
    I missed out the end bit (latest issue infers )- I meant have you a copy and have you read 9001 2015?
    I have a copy of 9001-2000 and had a paper copy of 9001-2008 which I left at the place when I sold it.
    But if you have a pdf of 2015, if you'd be so kind to PM me it as I'd love to read it for old times sake.

    It doesn't matter my experience, but it goes back to BS5750 (Chief Drafty OEM Aerospace) upto leaving and working for myself and being one of the smallest companies in the UK to gain accreditation for 9001 (2 people and yes I wrote the manual and cleaned the toilets )

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    002 : About Standards and Specifications

    "What has ISO got to do with it?
    Not much. As we've all found out, ISO certification is a kind of smoke screen designed to give the illusion of integrity. We've had ISO certified companies send us checks that bounce. So much for any kind of integrity.

    It is a membership in a fraternity of sorts and the membership dues are very steep indeed. $10,000 to $30,000 is not uncommon and then there are annual fees on top of it. Members of ISO are supposed to do business only with fellow members and that's how the organization maintains itself. It hasn't got much to do with the quality of the products but everything to do with red tape and paperwork. So much paperwork in fact that usually one or more staff member needs to be hired just to fill out the forms.

    Maybe you are just curious or maybe someone is twisting your arm, here is an affordable paperback explaining ISO 9001 in easier to understand terms: ISO 9001 in Plain English by Craig Cochran"


    You could join, then put their sticker on front door and website.
    Or you could document practices IAW customer expectations and present them.


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