Winsten
Plastic
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2020
Hey all!
I bought a lathe from work and threw it in my garage.
The short details for those looking for numbers:
$450 machine cost
$41.40 cleaning tools (harbor freight)
$65 breakfast for friends (help unloading)
$40 tank of gas
$??? Transport and tie down of machine (dad)
Lumber for sliding/propping (scrap)
$43.29 5 gal kerosene
$85.00 sight glasses and V belts, with shipping and tax
$11.90 gasket material for feed gearbox
$7.56 grease for change gears
$308 phase converter
$300 misc electrical
$9.34 5 gallon bucket and JB weld
$72.70 headstock oil
$258.81 (tool holder, jaws, tool, inserts OD turning only)
$21.20 threaded rod
~$1715 Total
(+~20 hours shopping and repairing)
I cannot stress enough that I had a lot of help, an ok amount of knowledge and research, and got the machine itself for incredibly cheap. I am not too proud to say I’ve been given a leg up by the family and community I was raised in, the time invested in my skills, and shear dumb luck. I expect a more realistic value to get a lathe of this size up and going would be about $3000 all else being equal, unless you have the tools and knowledge that I don’t on my own. It’s probable a mill would run about the same. Note that I have only limited tooling included.
I’ve included the story of the install as well, because I want to show people that it is not an insurmountable task to get started, even with very little industry experience (I have less than 3 years, mostly CNC programming, fixture design, and machine maintenance). That being said, it can be dangerous and requires attention to the details if you want to succeed at the task. It is a little long winded, but I am excited.
If you want the more detailed account, I’ve included my notes below: (pardon the formatting, copied from notes and posted on my phone)
The move in:
I purchased an Economaster S-400 Lathe from my work (14”x40”, no taper attachment, L00? Chuck, 7.5 HP 3 phase motor). The slideways look good, but each part of the machine shows wear, tear, and a little abuse. The paint job is hideous, but kept the rust out.
(Expected MRR~5.6 cubic inches/minute in 4130 on phase shifter)
The machine was apparently removed from service for floor space, according to the manager of that department.
Guestimate weight: ~3000 lbs
My dad has a Mahindra front loader (Model 3016 Shuttle, year?), but it could not outright lift the lathe off the trailer. Rolling the bucket allowed the chains to snug and lift it, but was unsafe and had to be manually balanced against rolling/tilting (imagine skinny 170 pound me holding it straight, hollering at dad on the tractor, and mom driving the truck and trailer). I Would not suggest this tactic for anyone.
Lifted the machine a few inches, drove the trailer out from under it. Set it down.
We set the bottom on 2”x8”x8’ I had on hand from making my daughters sandbox. My suburban driveway has a pretty steep slope. (2x12x12 or 3/4” plywood would have probably worked better)
We slid the machine and plank up the driveway like a sled, with the bucket of the tractor pushing on the wood below the lathe.
Then we attached chains to headstock casting and lifted the headstock end.
Using a long pry bar (Mississippi mud stick) at the tailstock end, we inched the lathe over the small (3” high) step into the garage.
We set the headstock end on lumber and slid in (pushing from the back).
Then we turned the lumber(s) 90 degrees and used the pry bar to walk it sideways, adjusting final location.
We managed to achieve only minor damage to the concrete, looks like I can feather it in with a sander or something, and with pressure washing won’t be noticeable.
The Refurb:
Opened up the headstock, it looks good. There’s wear on the edge of the teeth where some hard or incomplete shifts were made and ground it down there. Other than that all looks good. Had to remove the quick change gears to get to the drain plug. Drained the old, dark oil (~8 qts!) and wiped out the gearbox. Used a magnet to pick up any stubborn filings and then used kerosene and rags to wipe the inside of the box. There is no oil pump! I had removed a shaft expecting to find one in a small external housing and nope! I now need to replace the safety wire (.041”) holding the set screw in place on one of the gears. The headstock Oiler is just a galley that catches oil slung by the gears. Little copper tubes then drain the oil to the bearings. I blew out these tubes with WD-40 catching any trapped debris with a rag when possible. The bearings feel ok turning by hand, but time will tell. Discovered the random black thing on the outside of the gearbox was a sight glass and cleaned it with kerosene. Still somewhat stained, replacement on the way.
Now for the feed box. Male cast iron square head Drain plug basically welded in place. Used penetrant, almost rounded it off with 12” crescent (I’m limited on hand tools, only 27 years old after all, and it’s in a bad spot too). Used a dull chisel as a punch, striking counterclockwise, almost shaving a part of the head off. Hand Drilled a small hole in it with a left hand drill to drain approx 2 qts of dark, old oil. Still need to figure out how to get the plug out. Maybe heat with a butane torch? We will have to get it before refilling no matter what. Possibly need higher quality or sharper drills to accomplish this task, and will try larger left hand drills and screw extractors (I prefer the square type). Discovered a homemade threaded plug (aluminum) with an O-ring installed instead of sight glass, what is with these guys? Once the oil was drained, I took cover off the gearbox. It is horizontally facing (it’s the SIDE of the gearbox, instead of the top), so you have to remove all of the handles, I took special care not to lose the detent ball bearing and springs from the handles. I have experience with that... each handle had a taper pin that I punched out with an Allen key in a screwdriver handle - I have determined I need to purchase some punches. Some of the screws were hidden behind the feeds chart, that took a second to figure out. Once removed I wiped up a bunch of thick crud out of the bottom of the sump. It looks like the small manual pump in this gearbox may still work. I covered the gear box until the next day. Need to clean all removed components, gearbox, and oil pump.
I realized the paper gasket to seal on the feed box had crumbled. I’ll probably use permatex blue gasket maker to replace the seal for ease of use. The gearbox was cleaned with kerosene and a magnet to get any filings out of the corners. The pump feeds up into a pipe pinched off at the ends and bolted to the casting. Pumping the manual pump fills this pipe and then the oil slowly drains through copper tubes to all the bearings. The pipe was removed and cleaned, then reinstalled.
I then went on to replace the belts (label says they were changed in 1991, hah). The OEM sent me A68 V-Belts, but they were cogged, like a synchronous belt. I installed them anyway, I need to see if it’s ok from someone who knows a little more. Was struggling to install the belts from the very bottom of the lathe, found a trapdoor on the side that helped, but it had about 10 lbs worth of chips inside, from where they can fall in underneath the spindle. Had to remove and clean the tensioning eye bolt for the motor (which had rattled free of the shaft it holds onto, the motor was free floating). Reinstalled it and cinched the set screw down good. Side note: the motor bearings feel really smooth. Almost pinched my fingers pretty good installing the belts.
I had taken off and cleaned all the quick change gears and shafts on the back of the gearbox, and found some broken key stock. The keys had been reinstalled in such a way that they will still transmit. Will replace in the future. These gears require greasing and the gearboxes still need sealing and lube.
I ordered one more sight glass, the keys, and hit the $25 minimum imposed by Romi Parts.
I ended up sealing the feed gearbox with a crankcase version of permatex, figured it would hold up to oils better.
I opened the apron gearbox by removing the saddle, the saddle is integral with the top gearbox cover. Pushed the apron to the front of the machine and supported its weight with scrap lumber. Lifted the cross slide (integral with the top of the gearbox) and set it near the tailstock end of the lathe. Had to remove two clamps on the operator side of the lathe and one long one from the other side. The apron was missing a sight glass, and in lieu of replacement the internals were packed with... grease. I scooped, kerosened, and scrubbed my way to clean it. I flipped the saddle over and cleared all the oil ports (also packed with grease) and scrubbed the mess (literally) out of everything. All oil holes in the apron were cleaned. 2 felt wicks were removed (they wicked DOWN, seems weird, but they look good), I soaked them with WD40 and squeezed them out into a dry rag multiple times. They looked like an off-white tan when I was done and held the WD40 pretty well. I think the solvent dissolved some of the old stuff and the light oil displaced it. Worked pretty good.
I cleaned all the fasteners, flipped the saddle back over and remounted it. The clamps had .005” shims on the operator side. I think you can remove these if there is significant wear on the ways to still keep a tight fit. May bind up near the tailstock though, so be careful.
I used marine grease on the change gears, figuring the water resistance would help in my non-A/C environment. Took the largest gear and saturated the teeth, then reinstalled it and spun it a few times.
Bought some ISO VG 100 oil from a local company (Dixie Oil) pretty cheap. Filled the headstock and feed gearbox, as well as the apron. General gearbox oils are apparently formulated so that particulates fall into the bottom of the sump, motor oils hold the particles in a sort of colloidal mixture to allow them to be filtered. Just a fun fact.
The way oil calls for ISO VG 220, for this I feel comfortable using 50W motor oil, so I’ll get some of that.
Hooked up a static, digital phase shifter... the cheap-o DPS MY-PS-10. This phase shifter will reduce my overall horsepower to 5, but allow me to run on single phase input power. I ran cable from the sub panel where I squeezed in a 40 amp breaker through the attic then wired the motor in per the instruction. I hope it doesn’t trip the external main breaker if I run the dryer at the same time... time will tell. The motor triggered in reverse, so I swapped two leads on the Phase shifter’s output to correct that. All the gears and bearings sound good at all speeds, feeds and threads engage cleanly.
Tooling up:
I Purchased a plain back scroll chuck to salvage the jaws off of. The new chuck is almost a third the price of new jaws. I can also use the chuck once I buy a mill (don’t tell my wife)
I also purchased a CXA turning/facing tool block to go on the tool post that came with the machine. I need to have a special T-nut made for the post, because unfortunately it did not come with it.
I bought a Mitsubishi DWLNR 12 4D, some shims, and some WNMG 432 MA Mitsubishi inserts, grade is UE6020, good for alloy steels. I don’t have the torque or even necessarily the speed to properly utilize a negative chip breaker in the alloy steels I expect to cut, and I’ve had good luck with medium positive geometries in poor conditions. As a general use insert it should be adequate, and the overall negative geometry will still give me 6 corners per insert. I am taking a bit of a risk on Mitsubishi. The price point is good, but I’m used to kennametal at work. Also the smallest machines there run 1” stick tools now, so this tool looks kinda skinny.
Getting excited to be up and running! Will be roughly leveling the machine and hoping for the best, most of my work will luckily be fairly short. I am more concerned with machine vibration/wobbling safety than necessarily way twist (which I expect is minimal anyway due to the design) or exact level.
I hope to update you as I go, but I tend to get busy.
I bought a lathe from work and threw it in my garage.
The short details for those looking for numbers:
$450 machine cost
$41.40 cleaning tools (harbor freight)
$65 breakfast for friends (help unloading)
$40 tank of gas
$??? Transport and tie down of machine (dad)
Lumber for sliding/propping (scrap)
$43.29 5 gal kerosene
$85.00 sight glasses and V belts, with shipping and tax
$11.90 gasket material for feed gearbox
$7.56 grease for change gears
$308 phase converter
$300 misc electrical
$9.34 5 gallon bucket and JB weld
$72.70 headstock oil
$258.81 (tool holder, jaws, tool, inserts OD turning only)
$21.20 threaded rod
~$1715 Total
(+~20 hours shopping and repairing)
I cannot stress enough that I had a lot of help, an ok amount of knowledge and research, and got the machine itself for incredibly cheap. I am not too proud to say I’ve been given a leg up by the family and community I was raised in, the time invested in my skills, and shear dumb luck. I expect a more realistic value to get a lathe of this size up and going would be about $3000 all else being equal, unless you have the tools and knowledge that I don’t on my own. It’s probable a mill would run about the same. Note that I have only limited tooling included.
I’ve included the story of the install as well, because I want to show people that it is not an insurmountable task to get started, even with very little industry experience (I have less than 3 years, mostly CNC programming, fixture design, and machine maintenance). That being said, it can be dangerous and requires attention to the details if you want to succeed at the task. It is a little long winded, but I am excited.
If you want the more detailed account, I’ve included my notes below: (pardon the formatting, copied from notes and posted on my phone)
The move in:
I purchased an Economaster S-400 Lathe from my work (14”x40”, no taper attachment, L00? Chuck, 7.5 HP 3 phase motor). The slideways look good, but each part of the machine shows wear, tear, and a little abuse. The paint job is hideous, but kept the rust out.
(Expected MRR~5.6 cubic inches/minute in 4130 on phase shifter)
The machine was apparently removed from service for floor space, according to the manager of that department.
Guestimate weight: ~3000 lbs
My dad has a Mahindra front loader (Model 3016 Shuttle, year?), but it could not outright lift the lathe off the trailer. Rolling the bucket allowed the chains to snug and lift it, but was unsafe and had to be manually balanced against rolling/tilting (imagine skinny 170 pound me holding it straight, hollering at dad on the tractor, and mom driving the truck and trailer). I Would not suggest this tactic for anyone.
Lifted the machine a few inches, drove the trailer out from under it. Set it down.
We set the bottom on 2”x8”x8’ I had on hand from making my daughters sandbox. My suburban driveway has a pretty steep slope. (2x12x12 or 3/4” plywood would have probably worked better)
We slid the machine and plank up the driveway like a sled, with the bucket of the tractor pushing on the wood below the lathe.
Then we attached chains to headstock casting and lifted the headstock end.
Using a long pry bar (Mississippi mud stick) at the tailstock end, we inched the lathe over the small (3” high) step into the garage.
We set the headstock end on lumber and slid in (pushing from the back).
Then we turned the lumber(s) 90 degrees and used the pry bar to walk it sideways, adjusting final location.
We managed to achieve only minor damage to the concrete, looks like I can feather it in with a sander or something, and with pressure washing won’t be noticeable.
The Refurb:
Opened up the headstock, it looks good. There’s wear on the edge of the teeth where some hard or incomplete shifts were made and ground it down there. Other than that all looks good. Had to remove the quick change gears to get to the drain plug. Drained the old, dark oil (~8 qts!) and wiped out the gearbox. Used a magnet to pick up any stubborn filings and then used kerosene and rags to wipe the inside of the box. There is no oil pump! I had removed a shaft expecting to find one in a small external housing and nope! I now need to replace the safety wire (.041”) holding the set screw in place on one of the gears. The headstock Oiler is just a galley that catches oil slung by the gears. Little copper tubes then drain the oil to the bearings. I blew out these tubes with WD-40 catching any trapped debris with a rag when possible. The bearings feel ok turning by hand, but time will tell. Discovered the random black thing on the outside of the gearbox was a sight glass and cleaned it with kerosene. Still somewhat stained, replacement on the way.
Now for the feed box. Male cast iron square head Drain plug basically welded in place. Used penetrant, almost rounded it off with 12” crescent (I’m limited on hand tools, only 27 years old after all, and it’s in a bad spot too). Used a dull chisel as a punch, striking counterclockwise, almost shaving a part of the head off. Hand Drilled a small hole in it with a left hand drill to drain approx 2 qts of dark, old oil. Still need to figure out how to get the plug out. Maybe heat with a butane torch? We will have to get it before refilling no matter what. Possibly need higher quality or sharper drills to accomplish this task, and will try larger left hand drills and screw extractors (I prefer the square type). Discovered a homemade threaded plug (aluminum) with an O-ring installed instead of sight glass, what is with these guys? Once the oil was drained, I took cover off the gearbox. It is horizontally facing (it’s the SIDE of the gearbox, instead of the top), so you have to remove all of the handles, I took special care not to lose the detent ball bearing and springs from the handles. I have experience with that... each handle had a taper pin that I punched out with an Allen key in a screwdriver handle - I have determined I need to purchase some punches. Some of the screws were hidden behind the feeds chart, that took a second to figure out. Once removed I wiped up a bunch of thick crud out of the bottom of the sump. It looks like the small manual pump in this gearbox may still work. I covered the gear box until the next day. Need to clean all removed components, gearbox, and oil pump.
I realized the paper gasket to seal on the feed box had crumbled. I’ll probably use permatex blue gasket maker to replace the seal for ease of use. The gearbox was cleaned with kerosene and a magnet to get any filings out of the corners. The pump feeds up into a pipe pinched off at the ends and bolted to the casting. Pumping the manual pump fills this pipe and then the oil slowly drains through copper tubes to all the bearings. The pipe was removed and cleaned, then reinstalled.
I then went on to replace the belts (label says they were changed in 1991, hah). The OEM sent me A68 V-Belts, but they were cogged, like a synchronous belt. I installed them anyway, I need to see if it’s ok from someone who knows a little more. Was struggling to install the belts from the very bottom of the lathe, found a trapdoor on the side that helped, but it had about 10 lbs worth of chips inside, from where they can fall in underneath the spindle. Had to remove and clean the tensioning eye bolt for the motor (which had rattled free of the shaft it holds onto, the motor was free floating). Reinstalled it and cinched the set screw down good. Side note: the motor bearings feel really smooth. Almost pinched my fingers pretty good installing the belts.
I had taken off and cleaned all the quick change gears and shafts on the back of the gearbox, and found some broken key stock. The keys had been reinstalled in such a way that they will still transmit. Will replace in the future. These gears require greasing and the gearboxes still need sealing and lube.
I ordered one more sight glass, the keys, and hit the $25 minimum imposed by Romi Parts.
I ended up sealing the feed gearbox with a crankcase version of permatex, figured it would hold up to oils better.
I opened the apron gearbox by removing the saddle, the saddle is integral with the top gearbox cover. Pushed the apron to the front of the machine and supported its weight with scrap lumber. Lifted the cross slide (integral with the top of the gearbox) and set it near the tailstock end of the lathe. Had to remove two clamps on the operator side of the lathe and one long one from the other side. The apron was missing a sight glass, and in lieu of replacement the internals were packed with... grease. I scooped, kerosened, and scrubbed my way to clean it. I flipped the saddle over and cleared all the oil ports (also packed with grease) and scrubbed the mess (literally) out of everything. All oil holes in the apron were cleaned. 2 felt wicks were removed (they wicked DOWN, seems weird, but they look good), I soaked them with WD40 and squeezed them out into a dry rag multiple times. They looked like an off-white tan when I was done and held the WD40 pretty well. I think the solvent dissolved some of the old stuff and the light oil displaced it. Worked pretty good.
I cleaned all the fasteners, flipped the saddle back over and remounted it. The clamps had .005” shims on the operator side. I think you can remove these if there is significant wear on the ways to still keep a tight fit. May bind up near the tailstock though, so be careful.
I used marine grease on the change gears, figuring the water resistance would help in my non-A/C environment. Took the largest gear and saturated the teeth, then reinstalled it and spun it a few times.
Bought some ISO VG 100 oil from a local company (Dixie Oil) pretty cheap. Filled the headstock and feed gearbox, as well as the apron. General gearbox oils are apparently formulated so that particulates fall into the bottom of the sump, motor oils hold the particles in a sort of colloidal mixture to allow them to be filtered. Just a fun fact.
The way oil calls for ISO VG 220, for this I feel comfortable using 50W motor oil, so I’ll get some of that.
Hooked up a static, digital phase shifter... the cheap-o DPS MY-PS-10. This phase shifter will reduce my overall horsepower to 5, but allow me to run on single phase input power. I ran cable from the sub panel where I squeezed in a 40 amp breaker through the attic then wired the motor in per the instruction. I hope it doesn’t trip the external main breaker if I run the dryer at the same time... time will tell. The motor triggered in reverse, so I swapped two leads on the Phase shifter’s output to correct that. All the gears and bearings sound good at all speeds, feeds and threads engage cleanly.
Tooling up:
I Purchased a plain back scroll chuck to salvage the jaws off of. The new chuck is almost a third the price of new jaws. I can also use the chuck once I buy a mill (don’t tell my wife)
I also purchased a CXA turning/facing tool block to go on the tool post that came with the machine. I need to have a special T-nut made for the post, because unfortunately it did not come with it.
I bought a Mitsubishi DWLNR 12 4D, some shims, and some WNMG 432 MA Mitsubishi inserts, grade is UE6020, good for alloy steels. I don’t have the torque or even necessarily the speed to properly utilize a negative chip breaker in the alloy steels I expect to cut, and I’ve had good luck with medium positive geometries in poor conditions. As a general use insert it should be adequate, and the overall negative geometry will still give me 6 corners per insert. I am taking a bit of a risk on Mitsubishi. The price point is good, but I’m used to kennametal at work. Also the smallest machines there run 1” stick tools now, so this tool looks kinda skinny.
Getting excited to be up and running! Will be roughly leveling the machine and hoping for the best, most of my work will luckily be fairly short. I am more concerned with machine vibration/wobbling safety than necessarily way twist (which I expect is minimal anyway due to the design) or exact level.
I hope to update you as I go, but I tend to get busy.