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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    They seem to think Trump has screwed up their ability to offer their own plans-
    NFIB abandons support of association health plans - PNHP
    Most of the legislation making those harder - limiting offers across State lines, etc. went up well before Bama-scare even rolled-in. Their absence was part of what it was meant to offset.

    It might not have been BHO's "plan" to sell-out to the Big Inch-Hoorance firms. Some figure they simply had such a long, long lead warning time as to what was coming, they had plenty of time to outsmart the ACA and continue to prevail.

    Or just get out of the business and go play some more profitable / lower-risk numbers game. As a few have done.

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    I don't know how prevalent it is but the company I work for is self insured.Our rates are reasonable and every year they explore all the insurance co's for the best rates to administer the plan.
    I don't know how much savings is involved verses traditional insurance.I don't think our company has more than 1k employees.Any body else in a company that is self insured?
    I have had 13 stents and 5 bypasses;the stents at last cost was approx 50k list ea.Insurance got a30k+ discount and I pay about 2k.
    Why the inflated "list price"?It is obviously just a 20k job and if you don't have insurance they will negotiate the price,I don't think anyone pays the full price.If you offer to pay cash they will generally give you a 20% discount.
    Jacksonville has had more hospitals and health facilities built in the last few years than any where in the country,so it seems.So they must be making a killing.
    As for the people that show up at the ER with no way to pay that's covered by the inflated price that every one else pays.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratbldr427 View Post
    I don't know how prevalent it is but the company I work for is self insured.Our rates are reasonable and every year they explore all the insurance co's for the best rates to administer the plan.
    I don't know how much savings is involved verses traditional insurance.I don't think our company has more than 1k employees.Any body else in a company that is self insured?
    Several I've worked for did that. i was involved in the numbers decisions. It wasn't "DIY" entirely, even for large firms. It was part of the package we cut with major insurers AKA "underwriters" on the basis of a deductible.

    That was often in the multiple tens of thousands of dollars. A small one might be where the company covered pooled the first $25,000/year across all staff. That allowed giving the staff, individually, less hurtful deductibles as not all hands get badly sick, all at once. Also saved significant money on staff time and paperwork for the inch-hoorer.

    Who otherwise did the same actuarial averaging, anyway. Just more to their benefit, and less to the customer's.

    "Self" insured also tends to smarten-up company management as to general health and safety being held to a better standard, and malingerers discouraged at source.

    Inch-hoorer can't reach into the workplace as well, so they are pleased to cut such deals.

    Downside is some firms go all claim-denial aggressive or too trigger-happy over firing and cutting average age of the workforce in trying to keep booking savings out of the deductible.

    BTDTGTTS, Both sides.

    TANSTAAFL

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    It'll annoy some but it is a simple question.

    What has healthcare and cost have to do with a company and employment? It's a national issue, not an industrial work related one.

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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It'll annoy some but it is a simple question.

    What has healthcare and cost have to do with a company and employment? It's a national issue, not an industrial work related one.
    Really Gordon, how many times have you been told, IN THE US MOST PEOPLE GET THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE THROUGH THEIR EMPLOYER.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    Really Gordon, how many times have you been told, IN THE US MOST PEOPLE GET THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE THROUGH THEIR EMPLOYER.
    That wasn't the issue. Not all are employed and not all employers provide healthcare. Is "most" even close to a majority? I doubt it.

    Then what?

    That's the question. It really was a simple question I asked and something you should be asking yourselves, not me.

    I don't have a problem but far too many of you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    That wasn't the issue. Not all are employed and not all employers provide healthcare. Is "most" even close to a majority? I doubt it.

    Then what?

    That's the question. It really was a simple question I asked and something you should be asking yourselves, not me.

    I don't have a problem but far too many of you do.
    Reread post #9.

  9. #128
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    Default I've had it with Health Insurance, looked and found online Primary Care in WA State.

    Gordon,

    You, and many on here, assume healthcare is a birth-given right.

    Which to me is hard to understand, considering how expensive health care is, even in countries with “affordable” healthcare.

    How can something so expensive be a “birth-right”? Only by generally making other people pay for it, that’s how.

    Everybody is on here bitching and complaining about healthcare costs, and they have a right to. But then again, if a person has required hundreds of thousands of dollars (or even millions) in healthcare to get to this point, shouldn’t that person be paying more than Joe Healthy of the same age who has cost the system very little?

    America was founded in large part to get away from forced redistribution of earnings.

    Now I realize lots of things in America and most countries can be placed under the “socialism” label: roads, schools, national defense, fire and police service, national parks, social services, etc.

    But in America, healthcare for all would require trillions (yes, with a “t”) of dollars per year, and that’s money that we just don’t have as a country. And the healthcare industry would have to double in size to handle the workload.

    Sure it sounds all rosy and good, but where is the money going to come from?

    And, you have to remember, America is the least-healthy industrialized nation on the planet. Two-thirds of all are citizens (including children) are overweight, with a full one-third of all citizens (including children) are classified as obese.

    These were all choices made by people with the power to make the choices!

    Not to hurt anybody’s feelings, but it costs a fortune to keep fat people alive, especially later in life.

    Where’s the money going to come from for universal healthcare? Gonna tell all the doctors and nurses to take drastic pay cuts? Gonna milk all the “rich” people of their money?

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    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    I think Gordon's (and just about everyone else that doesn't live in the USA) is that insurance works best with the largest possible pool of users and the lowest overheads. And it is an insurance issue, even with nationalized or self-funded healthcare. No one can plan for not ending up in a hospital on a dialysis machine or on an operating table after having bits cut out or on a long course of chemotherapy, having one of your kids turn out to be a type 1 diabetic at the age of 7 (me). etc.

    Single payer fits the description or largest possible pool, efficient insurance. What you have isn't even in the same dictionary as that description. You are being taken for a ride with the overhead of for-profit insurance companies, hospital/doctor billing departments etc. and most f you are well aware of the fact. Even to the extent that in other countries, your doctors would be telling many of you to lose weight and pro actively teaching folks why and how to do it. It isn't that healthcare is cheap in other parts of the world, it's that you're paying twice as much as any other industrialized nation apart from Switzerland and 25% more than even them.

  13. Likes Gordon B. Clarke, PDW, TeachMePlease liked this post
  14. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post



    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
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    Are you at a loss for words?

  15. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Gordon,

    You, and many on here, assume healthcare is a birth-given right.

    Which to me is hard to understand, considering how expensive health care is, even in countries with “affordable” healthcare.

    How can something so expensive be a “birth-right”? Only by generally making other people pay for it, that’s how.

    Everybody is on here bitching and complaining about healthcare costs, and they have a right to. But then again, if a person has required hundreds of thousands of dollars (or even millions) in healthcare to get to this point, shouldn’t that person be paying more than Joe Healthy of the same age who has cost the system very little?

    America was founded in large part to get away from forced redistribution of earnings.

    Now I realize lots of things in America and most countries can be placed under the “socialism” label: roads, schools, national defense, fire and police service, national parks, social services, etc.

    But in America, healthcare for all would require trillions (yes, with a “t”) of dollars per year, and that’s money that we just don’t have as a country. And the healthcare industry would have to double in size to handle the workload.

    Sure it sounds all rosy and good, but where is the money going to come from?
    You as a country already *spend* the money.

    It just doesn't go into first-level (doctors, nurses, hospitals) expenditure. It goes into the *health care industry* with the massive parasitic overheads of insurance companies and byzantine accounting systems requiring massive admin tails for doctors so they get paid at all.

    OK you think this is normal and acceptable, hence your take on how the expense of universal cover is unaffordable. If you kept on doing as you do, I'd have to agree with you.

    But what you're doing now is idiotic and unsustainable.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post

    But what you're doing now is idiotic and unsustainable.

    PDW

    We're smart enough to know any "fix" for this will be more taxes for the working/middle class and not the dissolution or even restructuring of the insurance companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamscal View Post
    We're smart enough to know any "fix" for this will be more taxes for the working/middle class and not the dissolution or even restructuring of the insurance companies.
    Can't disagree with that, on past performance.

    That's what happens when you allow private companies to own your political representatives. Plus, either don't bother to vote at all or never consider voting for anyone except Tweedledum.

    Allowing/accepting massively gerrymandered and/or mal-apportioned electorate districts is a cherry on top......

    I feel sorry for you guys, actually. Even cnctoolcat, selfish and blinkered as he is.

    PDW

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    I haven't had health insurance for the last 4 years or so...................Christian Healthcare Ministries here. It's a health share program and there is a bunch of 'em out there...............just keep in mind not all are considered equal. We chose this one because it best fit our situation. Not sure of the exact monthly "premo" as the wife takes car of it, but it's around $4-500/month for a family of six.

    We can submit any bill over $500, but we choose to pay most all of our small bills ourselves. Adds to the group pool. Kinda payin' it forward as we can afford it. When you pay bills up front the hospital usually gives a 30-50% discount. We had a $13k submitted bill paid for this past 6 months. A few friends/acquaintances have had some pretty hefty bills paid no questions asked.

    My wife and I both have pre-existing conditions. Health share organizations can turn you down for them or cover you with the exception of medical costs directly related to condition. Our program will take you regardless of non active pre-existing conditions. But they limit coverage to that condition to $15k the first year, $25k the 2nd, and $50k the 3rd. After the third, you are covered completely and the condition is no longer considered pre-existing.

    It was basically our only option when we signed up..............our county only had 1 provider. Couldn't see our specialists or usual family doctor............closest ER in the network is 1.5 hrs away. Premos over $1500/month and deductible over $28k before anything is covered. Don't qualify for subsidies and even if we did, if you make too much one month(self employed), they make you pay 'em back.

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  21. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Premos over $1500/month and deductible over $28k before anything is covered. Don't qualify for subsidies and even if we did, if you make too much one month(self employed), they make you pay 'em back.
    That is awful. I have great insurance through my wifes employer, but I hate getting calls late at night from a friend that sounds like he is on his death bed asking if i have any antibiotics he can have because he doesn't have health insurance. I will have them check into a health share program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    I haven't had health insurance for the last 4 years or so...................Christian Healthcare Ministries here. It's a health share program and there is a bunch of 'em out there...............just keep in mind not all are considered equal. We chose this one because it best fit our situation. Not sure of the exact monthly "premo" as the wife takes car of it, but it's around $4-500/month for a family of six.

    We can submit any bill over $500, but we choose to pay most all of our small bills ourselves. Adds to the group pool. Kinda payin' it forward as we can afford it. When you pay bills up front the hospital usually gives a 30-50% discount. We had a $13k submitted bill paid for this past 6 months. A few friends/acquaintances have had some pretty hefty bills paid no questions asked.

    My wife and I both have pre-existing conditions. Health share organizations can turn you down for them or cover you with the exception of medical costs directly related to condition. Our program will take you regardless of non active pre-existing conditions. But they limit coverage to that condition to $15k the first year, $25k the 2nd, and $50k the 3rd. After the third, you are covered completely and the condition is no longer considered pre-existing.

    It was basically our only option when we signed up..............our county only had 1 provider. Couldn't see our specialists or usual family doctor............closest ER in the network is 1.5 hrs away. Premos over $1500/month and deductible over $28k before anything is covered. Don't qualify for subsidies and even if we did, if you make too much one month(self employed), they make you pay 'em back.
    I can't even begin to understand that situation so no point in commenting.

    What I am wondering is why Ox and jamscal gave "likes".

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    I hate getting calls late at night from a friend that sounds like he is on his death bed asking if i have any antibiotics he can have because he doesn't have health insurance.

    I think this right here is the part that horrifies our European friends/forum members/acquaintances....

    Their systems all have flaws, and I'm sure they all know them... But this is unfathomable to pretty much anyone from a developed first world country that isn't America.

    This is life as I've always known it, having grown up in America...

    But it doesn't HAVE to be.

    I see Toolcat's point that no, more taxes are not a good thing... But I see PDW's point that WE ALREADY SPEND THAT MUCH, AND MORE on healthcare, we're just dumping it into the wrong places, we're lining insurance company's pockets, instead of just paying providers.

    How many employees does an insurance agency have? How many secretaries? How many salesmen? How many janitors to clean the offices?

    What do any of them add to healthcare? Nothing except overhead.

    Cut the fat, we could have healthcare for all without an increase in individual cost (in an ideal world... Obviously I know and accept that government cannot do ANYTHING efficiently).

    I'm fortunate to have free healthcare through work... As a whole, the majority of Americans are not so lucky.

    I don't claim to have all the answers... But I know there's gotta be something better than what we're doing now.

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  25. #139
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    I think that your assessment of where the fat is - is slightly off kilter.

    A) If you took the Ins Co out of the equazsion, then those folks would then just work for the Gov.
    Someone still has to run the paperwork on everything that gets done.

    B) IMO - the bulk of the fat is in very high costs of the care it'self, and the drugs that are used.

    B1) Big hospitals have been buying up all the smaller ones. Not b/c they are broke.

    B2) Big Pharma aint broke.

    C) For God knows what reason, but the US is willing to pay 25x (?) more for the same drugs that anywhere else in the world does.
    C1) If we start paying what others doo - then you can kiss new development goodbye.
    C2) Then the rest of the world that uses new drugs will be sorry.


    Personally I seem to be in between most of you.
    I'm not quite like the Cat Man as I feel that it is more of a right - at least to some point.
    If only those that could afford health care themselves - got it, then that would mean that only those that are healthy and can keep a job can get the care - that they don't need.

    On the other side, I am NOT of the mentality that we need to dump beaucoup bucks into the average Joe.
    How can anyone - and these days EVERYONE (including the hospitals) think that we as a people can afford to dump $1,000,000 in med bills into a populous that only averages maybe $2,000,000 in their lifetime?

    Does it seem like a good plan to put 50% of everything that you earn in your lifetime into med costs?
    It is not sustainable!
    Either we need cheaper care, or we need to die.

    I am all for Death Boards when it comes to health care.
    And I am all for Death Tax too. (read - no Living Trusts!)
    These are GOOD things!

    HSA's are good too - as they make you think about if you really want to get this or that done.
    It's your Money. How doo you wunna spend it?
    Is it worth $250,000 to you to go through this treatment, knowing that the odds are slim to nothing that it will cure you?
    Or would you rather not leave your family dead broke?


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox




    p

  26. #140
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    I don't believe anyone would argue that our healthcare is broken. How do we fix it? I cant see anything changing for at least 20 years.


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