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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmach10 View Post
    Check your attitude. We went through this from the other side of the coin. They hired a guy with an equal amount of time in the trade as you, wouldn't listen to anything anyone tried to tell him. Almost got people hurt, machined into the table of our mill, (wasn't his fault), crashed a plate into the quill handle of another machine and broke it (wasn't his fault), bragged about how they sent HIM to DeVleig for training on using their jig mill early in his career. Came by us and forgot how to use it and blamed me for fucking it when he had one of the handles in the wrong position. Got really pissed when someone had to show him ("those cocksuckers fucked it up") how to set the bolt hole function on the DRO. He must have been allergic to oil because he never oiled a machine let alone cleaned up after himself. We all get crunchy in our old age, me included. Lord knows I can be pretty stubborn too. Not directed at OP but we all need to check out egos sometimes. "FRED" retired, ended up passing away from a heart attack ALONE in his back yard. Sad ending to a sad life.
    You are describing a "hack" or a "butcher" "liar" or someone that always blames someone else. Thats not me. Im not perfect by any means. And I understand that there is always someone better. I can and do admit when I screw up. Im 60 yrs old and am done with the old "ego trip". I mean, I like to do a good job and am proud of doing quality work, but I dont let ego drive me be out of reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Every coin has two sides.

    From your side, you very well might be 100% right about your skills and him being a liar, lousy supervisor and in general pain in the arse.
    From your side of the coin, you can live with it. It's only a job, yes'em to death, try to get on his good side, smile and remember at the end of the day...its all over.
    You can confront him or the Big Boss...but that CAN and most likely will come right back at you in spades.


    Then we have what nobody likes to hear...the "Other side of the Coin".

    Big boss and customers usually complain to the supervisors, not the guys on the floor.
    YOur good and what they want can be two very different things. I have a gent here that deburs parts TOO GOOD. Now most would say thats not possible. Well it is, sometimes a Single, One Second pass with a Roto-bur is more then acceptable BUT I'll get 5 minutes with a needle file from him with perfect 1/32 radius's. Customer is happy as a clam, parts look great. But for me, ("The Arsehole" in my employees eyes)I quoted customer for a 1 second operation and that is all the time I aloted, so his better cuts heavily into our profit and machine is not running so we will fall behind on delivery.

    Sometimes what you perceive as perfect may not be exactly what they see as perfect.

    I had a guy here that never made mistakes...my machines made them. A welder that put all the parts into the Jig correctly and somehow they got rearranged after. So it was cut up the assemblies and reweld. He'd tell me he did on his own time and didn't cost me anything more ( I never wanted it done on his time) but I was still pissed and he couldn't understand that while the assemble fit just fine...it looked like crap with all the cut and grind marks. I am sure he went home calling me an Arsehole...after all it was a perfect job.

    In any case...you can ask. Its there ballgame, their rules. If the game is not to your liking we are a free society, you give your notice, take your stuff and go work elsewhere where you are a better fit.
    I understand about this guy you describe. His work is perfect. but he put way too much time in it that it "killed the job' or killed the profit. Sure, I was like that back in 1979 and so on, but you learn what you have to make perfect (nothings perfect) and what you can let things slide or good enough. The other guy you speak of just cant admit that he makes mistakes. everyone makes mistakes. "If you never make mistakes, you aint doing anything"

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    I was in the position before retirement for a few years where I would have to go into different shops during the year when they were at the peak of their production time to keep things caught up during the high need cycle. Most all of the locations had long term, year round employees who were great and appreciated us being there so that everything went well, customers remained happy and they gave them work for the rest of the year. They are all still friends and we talk at least once a month and always stop and visit if we are in the area.

    One shop promoted one of the floor workers to shop foreman and it went to his head and he forgot where he came from and that we had all worked the same for years. He disliked the, as he put it "temp" help coming in doing all the work even though we worked for the same company just in different locations. I thought about it and took the attitude that it would pass or I would just decline to go the following year. He became more overbearing daily so I decided that I just would avoid him as much as possible so every time he started walking toward me I would start to walk away and he would always go "hey, we need to talk". I would always reply I just remembered I need to #$%@ and I had diarrhea earlier so if you want to follow me to the bathroom we can chat or you can wait here and I will be back. When I would go back if he was still there I would say the same thing and go back to the john. After about a week he realized that I was basically telling him that he reminded me of #$%@ and I was not interested in playing his game. He backed off, we had a great time and when it was time for me to go he shook my hand, thanked me and asked me to please come back the next time they needed help.

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    I've found it rare, though they do exist, but some people just fucking suck.

    Most can be swindled, canoodled, tricked, bribed, or bamboozled into relative compliance...but some people just fucking suck.

    You may have met one.

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    Weldman I meant no disrespect. I'm very near your age and have been elevated to the rank of "Old Timer". My partner and I were the go to guys. Our skills and talents were pretty much respected by the trades we work with. Now a new crop of young guys came in. They have us look at something we've repaired in the past we tell them with no BS what's going on and they send a new guy to look at it and get his opinion. My partner and I at first got pissed and felt very disrespected. Now we feel if our opinions aren't worth hearing we keep our mouths shut and let them have at it. I'm getting to the point where I feel I have nothing to prove anymore. Will the walls collapse when I retire no. One thing I have noticed though, they only remember the Fuck Ups. If I retire and five years from now my name doesn't come up anymore, I must have done something right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodge View Post
    Have you considered he is looking to reduce staff in the shop and zeroed in on you. I fell victim to just such an individual after years of employment.
    Good catch....especially since the OP says he has 40 years experience. That would make OP around 58-60 years old....


    Welcome to blue collar work in America. But, who knows. You might find a home in a great smaller shop where they appreciate experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    imo you are experiencing the single biggest problem in business - ego. Rather than put his aside and act in accordance with what is best for the company (what a manager is suppose to do), he continuously uses his position off authority not to help the company but instead to to bolster his sense of self, or ego.

    Its a wide spread character flaw often manifesting as the common asshole. Being made a manager and given some authority should come with a bit of training about being aware of ego (we all have one) and to subordinate it as it will find this new found authority fertile ground. Not a lot you can do about it, suck it up or move on, you do get to pick who you work for. Come work for me, I'm only a bit of an asshole, but I need guys who can read a drawing and make stuff
    I'll go against the grain here and say I think it's exactly the opposite of what you say. I have a gigantic, massive ego and I dream of meeting someone who is more capable or more effective than me. In the meantime, I *love* learning and I've always learned more from being wrong than being right.

    I think the guy the OP is talking about is massively insecure. He feels threatened by the OP and that bugs the shit out of him. If he was confident in being able to do what OP can, or even being able to learn to do it, then he wouldn't behave as he does.

    Two things come to mind. Firstly, that life is too short to deal with assholes. And secondly, if the OP really is as good as he says, then skip the manager and go to his boss. At the end of the day, results count, and if the supervisor is a dickhead but the OP is hot shit, they will rectify the problem. The "chain of command" is bullshit. A supervisor isn't above a worker in terms of value - they are just (supposed to be) the person who is best suited to manage a group. If they are doing a bad job of that causing a superstar worker to be unhappy, a good manager will rectify that through retraining or whatever else. If they don't, then OP isn't as hot-shit as they think, or the management is shit too - in which case, hit eject and find somewhere better.

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  13. #28
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    What is the point of having a "Clip Board Jockey" (AKA Supervisor). The business that follow this wasteful strategy are doomed, but what is truly insulting is that they are paid more than the top producers on the shop floor.

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    Place I worked was sold,new manager says to me (a greyhair)...... "greyhairs are a bad look .....customers think we' re inefficient,and slow.".......funny thing was the young guys made mistake after mistake ,reworks costing tens of thousands,and long delays on site projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    What is the point of having a "Clip Board Jockey" (AKA Supervisor). The business that follow this wasteful strategy are doomed, but what is truly insulting is that they are paid more than the top producers on the shop floor.
    When you become a business owner you will realize that too producers on the floor sometimes can't manage their time on their own and need someone to manage it for them.

    Supervisors are absolutely needed in a shop and they get all the shit first and have the terrible job of passing the shit on to others. The stress, having to take the stress home to their families, and waking up with the stress all to come to work and do it all over again deserves something. Since the business can't take the stress away....we give them more money to compensate.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    I just posted this on another thread..it may fit here also

    I remember when I told a boss that the apprentice should not break a new guy in on a job. The boss got mad that I made that comment...What are you talking about, it is a simple job...

    Another time I told a boss that it is a good idea to make a note of scrap making errors so when the job comes again we can remember what might go wrong... he didn't do that.

    Another time a boss asked me why did you stop grinding. I said because this is a very fussy part and I can’t talk to you and be sure to make size.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 06-06-2020 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    I'll go against the grain here and say I think it's exactly the opposite of what you say. I have a gigantic, massive ego
    Its meant in the sense of the classic definition of ego - one's sense of self. I think insecure is another way stating the problem, when their sense of self is weak and in trouble and desperately tries bolster itself regardless of collateral damage. Everybody needs to feed the ego - to feel good about oneself, but obviously authority provides lots of really bad ways to do so. For those maladjusted types, stepping on others is messed up little dopamine rush.

    I don't think we're disagreeing. For some people lacking control and with poor self esteem (their sense of self or ego is crying for attention) authority provides the opportunity to step on others to satisfy it. its shades of grey toward a psychopath imo, same dynamic, ego (need to bolster the sense of self) induced behaviour without empathy or regard for others.

    I've thought about this a lot and I say its such a major problem in business, as business is obviously hierarchical so regularly puts people in positions of authority over others. As everyone has an ego, it often takes a turn for the worse. If you're a manager, look in mirror in the morning and ask "what can I do for them today". Most never engage the mirror....but the ego does and its whispering "what can they do for me today"
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 06-06-2020 at 06:57 PM.

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  21. #33
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    For about a year I worked for a jerk. I finally learned to grab a note pad and and write down every instruction he gave me. Before we ended a discussion I made sure that we reviewed the list. Later on, when he would bitch that I didn't do something or do it right I would trot out the list and point out that what he was complaining about wasn't on the list or was described differently in my notes. The people above him soon saw what was happening and he got "promoted" to a different area. Written documentation!

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    Quote Originally Posted by theperfessor View Post
    For about a year I worked for a jerk. I finally learned to grab a note pad and and write down every instruction he gave me. Before we ended a discussion I made sure that we reviewed the list. Later on, when he would bitch that I didn't do something or do it right I would trot out the list and point out that what he was complaining about wasn't on the list or was described differently in my notes. The people above him soon saw what was happening and he got "promoted" to a different area. Written documentation!
    I used to do this with the only ex-boss I never got on with. He'd give an instruction and if things went wrong flat deny he'd said it. So I used to send confirming emails as soon as I got back to my computer. Generally he'd ignore them and not reply.

    That meant my copy/statement of the record was the only one written down, which did not go well for him when something expensive happened.

    But life was too short so after dumping the documentation on the reviewers, I just left.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Its meant in the sense of the classic definition of ego - one's sense of self. I think insecure is another way stating the problem, when their sense of self is weak and in trouble and desperately tries bolster itself regardless of collateral damage. Everybody needs to feed the ego - to feel good about oneself, but obviously authority provides lots of really bad ways to do so. For those maladjusted types, stepping on others is messed up little dopamine rush.

    I don't think we're disagreeing. For some people lacking control and with poor self esteem (their sense of self or ego is crying for attention) authority provides the opportunity to step on others to satisfy it. its shades of grey toward a psychopath imo, same dynamic, ego (need to bolster the sense of self) induced behaviour without empathy or regard for others.

    I've thought about this a lot and I say its such a major problem in business, as business is obviously hierarchical so regularly puts people in positions of authority over others. As everyone has an ego, it often takes a turn for the worse. If you're a manager, look in mirror in the morning and ask "what can I do them today". Most never engage the mirror....but the ego does and its whispering "what can they do for me today"

    "What can I do [for] them?"
    (I take it?)


    Ask not what your minnions can doo for you, but...



    -----------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    yup, fixed, thanks.

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    I also know as soon as a new supervisor appears ,certain shop floor guys start mind games and "white anting" trying to bring him/her down a peg or two........actually a lot more if its is a "her".....A lot of shop floor guys and supervisors also bring all their frustrations from home and play them out in the workplace....Another good reason to work for yourself if you dont get along with anyone........But funny thing is you find yourself taking a lot more notice of what a customer tells you he wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Its meant in the sense of the classic definition of ego - one's sense of self. I think insecure is another way stating the problem, when their sense of self is weak and in trouble and desperately tries bolster itself regardless of collateral damage. Everybody needs to feed the ego - to feel good about oneself, but obviously authority provides lots of really bad ways to do so. For those maladjusted types, stepping on others is messed up little dopamine rush.

    I don't think we're disagreeing. For some people lacking control and with poor self esteem (their sense of self or ego is crying for attention) authority provides the opportunity to step on others to satisfy it. its shades of grey toward a psychopath imo, same dynamic, ego (need to bolster the sense of self) induced behaviour without empathy or regard for others.

    I've thought about this a lot and I say its such a major problem in business, as business is obviously hierarchical so regularly puts people in positions of authority over others. As everyone has an ego, it often takes a turn for the worse. If you're a manager, look in mirror in the morning and ask "what can I do for them today". Most never engage the mirror....but the ego does and its whispering "what can they do for me today"
    Or to put it another way -- There's a lot of people who shouldn't be in charge of anyone because they're not yet in charge of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    When you become a business owner you will realize that too producers on the floor sometimes can't manage their time on their own and need someone to manage it for them.

    Supervisors are absolutely needed in a shop and they get all the shit first and have the terrible job of passing the shit on to others. The stress, having to take the stress home to their families, and waking up with the stress all to come to work and do it all over again deserves something. Since the business can't take the stress away....we give them more money to compensate.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Well said! I was "working supervisor" for many years. Quite frankly, it SUCKED. I was responsible for my work, and the work of 6-10 other guys. On top of that, my boss (shop owner) would often come out and contradict what I told the guys what priorities were. One bad day, I confronted him and said "either you are running the show, or I am, make a decision". He had the most dumbfounded look on his face (LOL). He eased back a bit after that, but it was never a good relationship. I think he liked to micro-manage.... ahh well...

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    I once worked a couple years for the same fab shop foreman as the OP. If you said black, he would automatically say white. Just plain petty about everything. He was a pretty smart guy, especially when it came to blowing smoke up the boss's ass. No matter, I couldn't do anything right in his eyes and he would go out of his way to point that out frequently. Well, he was the man the boss wanted for the job and the boss liked the way he did things so there was no way for me to change the situation. It wasn't that great of a job, so the solution was very simple. I moved on. There are always better jobs out there; you just have to look for them. And, just like every job I've ever had, I learned things at the lousy job and it wasn't a complete waste of my time to have worked there. That's what I keep in the forefront.


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