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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    Thanks! I have 3phase, but it is a 10hp rotary phase for cnc, but I don't what the hp of the listed cnc is. My shop is wired on the outside of the walls based so changing things up isn't that bad. I do have a sizable 3phase paned. My shop has a small window unit for cooling but I do have a good heating system. PA can go from 90deg with high humidity in the summer down to 0deg in the winter.
    The main spindle motor is 10hp. You may (a 20hp converter would work) be able to run it on that converter but Iím not sure Fadal does not recommend running them on converters. You can do it but you have to make sure the generated leg does not go to the control. Or for about $800 you can buy the single phase transformer and run that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    ^^^ That Fadal 4020 is probably 15hp. Someone may correct me on that, I am not a fadal guy.

    I have a 30" Haas VF2, 10hp on a 60 amp disconnect.
    My 20hp 4020 is on a 100 amp, and my 7.5hp Sharp is on a 30 amp.

    All 208V 3-ph.

    I tooled up the 4020 with 2 new Kurt vises and 18 new Techniks dual-contact holders for about $3500.

    Rigging was another $3500 to get the machine in my shop from about 60 miles away, and the electrical was about $1000 for everything to get it all hooked up. That included wiring the 1000 psi Chipblaster that needs it's own 30 amp disconnect.

    I think if you can budget 30K, you can have a circa mid-2000's 40" VMC, ready to make parts on your shop floor.
    Why would you pay extra for dual contact tooling for a Fadal? Also Iím sorry you got ripped off on rigging. Wiring it is easy itís a few wires sorry you got ripped off in that too. Cost me $1100 in rigging and hooked it up myself. 1000psi coolant is not something Iíve heard of on a Fadal?

    Iíd say you can have that 4020 with a fourth axis on your floor cutting for sub 18k offer that guy 10k and have cash in hand.

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    I seldom do more than a 25-piece run (about 4-5 hours total time including making drawings). Often it is just one piece.

    It is often the seemingly trivial things that make CNC machines indispensable for me. I can let it peck away at a deep hole while I do something else. I can always turn the correct radius on a part or get the correct angle. I can thread up to the shoulder at high speed at whatever pitch I want. I can always mill the right size counter bore. Mill nice keyways and slots. Lots of flood coolant for good finishes. I really like having the time to put tools away, tidy up the shop, deburr or clean parts, or saw the next batch of material while the machines are doing their thing. Even if the job could be run faster on a manual machine, the CNC is worth it, if for nothing else but eliminating tedium. The list goes on.

    I got my CNC equipment off of Craigslist from running shops. It took a little patience but I found machines that are a good match for my work and shop size. I am very happy that I was able to get a mill with a rotary 4th axis. Quite valuable.

    I don't see where CNC and short runs or single parts don't go together.

    Bill

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Why would you pay extra for dual contact tooling for a Fadal? Also I’m sorry you got ripped off on rigging. Wiring it is easy it’s a few wires sorry you got ripped off in that too. Cost me $1100 in rigging and hooked it up myself. 1000psi coolant is not something I’ve heard of on a Fadal?

    I’d say you can have that 4020 with a fourth axis on your floor cutting for sub 18k offer that guy 10k and have cash in hand.
    Lol. I did not buy a Fadal. I bought a 2008 Chevalier QP-2040L with a Fanuc Oi-MC control. The Chipblaster was included with the mill.

    I bought new dual contact holders because it's a big plus spindle, it's CAT, and my other mills are BT. I saw no reason not to buy the dual-contacts since that's what it's made for and the cost difference is not that much.

    It's a little more than just a few wires to hook it up. I used new fused disconnects- I have over $500 in fuses alone, and that includes a couple spares. Then add the wire, the seal-tite, fittings, connectors, etc to do the job right.

    Rigging was 2 trucks, a forklift and 4 guys for a full day. Remove the machine from the previous owner's shop, bring it 60 miles to my shop, unload it and skate it into place which included skating another mill into a different spot. And then they had to drive those trucks back home. I don't think the $3500 was out of line, but maybe things are cheaper where you live.

    I posted what I paid to setup a similar class machine, a reasonable estimate for the OP to consider. It doesn't mean he can't get it done cheaper, and since he didn't offer his budget I offered a number he can compare to, and what he can reasonably expect to get for that kind of budget. My total spend was less than 30K.

    Yes, the OP can have that Fadal on his floor for about what you say. What he will have is an old Fadal of mid-90's vintage, that is slow and will require more maintenance than a machine 10 years newer with lower hours, factory support, and better parts availability.

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    You don't even really need the computer software for programming right now either. If you are making the parts on a manual, then the programming for that same part on a VMC is going to be a piece of cake.


    If you gave us a part drawing, we can pretty much program the part for you, and explain it line-by-line too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Lol. I did not buy a Fadal. I bought a 2008 Chevalier QP-2040L with a Fanuc Oi-MC control. The Chipblaster was included with the mill.

    I bought new dual contact holders because it's a big plus spindle, it's CAT, and my other mills are BT. I saw no reason not to buy the dual-contacts since that's what it's made for and the cost difference is not that much.

    It's a little more than just a few wires to hook it up. I used new fused disconnects- I have over $500 in fuses alone, and that includes a couple spares. Then add the wire, the seal-tite, fittings, connectors, etc to do the job right.

    Rigging was 2 trucks, a forklift and 4 guys for a full day. Remove the machine from the previous owner's shop, bring it 60 miles to my shop, unload it and skate it into place which included skating another mill into a different spot. And then they had to drive those trucks back home. I don't think the $3500 was out of line, but maybe things are cheaper where you live.

    I posted what I paid to setup a similar class machine, a reasonable estimate for the OP to consider. It doesn't mean he can't get it done cheaper, and since he didn't offer his budget I offered a number he can compare to, and what he can reasonably expect to get for that kind of budget. My total spend was less than 30K.

    Yes, the OP can have that Fadal on his floor for about what you say. What he will have is an old Fadal of mid-90's vintage, that is slow and will require more maintenance than a machine 10 years newer with lower hours, factory support, and better parts availability.
    You said a 4020 thatís the model of Fadal
    I posted so obviously I thought you were talking about a Fadal 4020.

    It will be an older machine but all parts are available easy to change and even better cheap. Your control burns out on your haas you are out 20k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    You said a 4020 that’s the model of Fadal
    I posted so obviously I thought you were talking about a Fadal 4020.
    And practically every other machine with a 40 x 20 machining envelope is referred to as a 4020. It's just a generic term for that class of mill.

    The OP asked about other associated costs, which is why I gave some detail on rigging and tooling costs, and amperage requirements for different HP machines. I am not selling anything, just letting him know there are expenses to installing a VMC above just vises and holders.

    He suggested a 10K budget above the machine cost to get running, which makes me think his machine budget is probably more than that, and he might want to look at something a little more current than that Fadal. But that's his business- no concern of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    It will be an older machine but all parts are available easy to change and even better cheap. Your control burns out on your haas you are out 20k
    The control on my Haas burns out, the machine gets parted out. I'm in the business of making parts, not working on machines.

    That's the reason I didn't buy another Haas. I bought the Chevalier to have a replacement for the Haas when it does die. I am currently moving the parts over as the orders come in. I know I can always get support from Fanuc.

    You're a Fadal guy, that's fine. I'm not knocking Fadal. It's all pig iron to me.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    And practically every other machine with a 40 x 20 machining envelope is referred to as a 4020. It's just a generic term for that class of mill.

    The OP asked about other associated costs, which is why I gave some detail on rigging and tooling costs, and amperage requirements for different HP machines. I am not selling anything, just letting him know there are expenses to installing a VMC above just vises and holders.

    He suggested a 10K budget above the machine cost to get running, which makes me think his machine budget is probably more than that, and he might want to look at something a little more current than that Fadal. But that's his business- no concern of mine.

    The control on my Haas burns out, the machine gets parted out. I'm in the business of making parts, not working on machines.

    That's the reason I didn't buy another Haas. I bought the Chevalier to have a replacement for the Haas when it does die. I am currently moving the parts over as the orders come in. I know I can always get support from Fanuc.

    You're a Fadal guy, that's fine. I'm not knocking Fadal. It's all pig iron to me.
    Thankyou for clarifying the 4020 situation I misunderstood.

    I suggested that because itís a good easy to maintain machine that will also hold it value and if he messes something up will have parts available for cheap. Remember he is going from 100% manual to a vmc. I also dont feel from what he stated that he needs a fast new machine. He will get by with 700ipm rapids and 10 second tool changes.

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    I talked with the seller of the Fadal just to get an idea of what to expect when searching. Turns out it may not be a bad deal after all. He provided the background on the machine and what he used it for, small parts run. Basically he is closing his shop, he has a full time job and can't see becoming a businessman. He said he is all about machining, but not able to connect the dots on the business side.

    Since he is closing, he is willing to include the tooling along with the machine as well as a computer and other items.

    I did ask for the weight and over all size, that becomes a major factor for my shop.

    I would go pick it up, but loading may be an issue. He does not have a forklift big enough to move it. Unloading will be an issue as my forklift is a 5k. Moving it in and setting it up I can work with. As far as electrical, I am able to do that part, I actually prefer as I know and understand the system.

    There is another one located in PA, for comparison this one is year 200X and does not have any tooling or 4th axis. Newer, not really any better looking as far as the pics show. That one is 13K.

    As far as going with something other than a VMC, I gave it some quick thought. I would rather make the leap and get into full throttle than buy an intermediate machine. In the long run I would end up going with a VMC so I then have to go through the whole process all over again. Kind of taking off a band-aid, just do it and get it over with, but more expensive.

    I am not set on this particular machine, I know its not the only one out there. I don't want to go to a dealer, I prefer private seller as you can get some background or at least know if you can somewhat trust the guy. If not, I'll walk away.

    As for the amount I want to spend. If I could keep it under $20K that would be great. If its more I would have to give it some thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    I talked with the seller of the Fadal just to get an idea of what to expect when searching. Turns out it may not be a bad deal after all. He provided the background on the machine and what he used it for, small parts run. Basically he is closing his shop, he has a full time job and can't see becoming a businessman. He said he is all about machining, but not able to connect the dots on the business side.

    Since he is closing, he is willing to include the tooling along with the machine as well as a computer and other items.

    I did ask for the weight and over all size, that becomes a major factor for my shop.

    I would go pick it up, but loading may be an issue. He does not have a forklift big enough to move it. Unloading will be an issue as my forklift is a 5k. Moving it in and setting it up I can work with. As far as electrical, I am able to do that part, I actually prefer as I know and understand the system.

    There is another one located in PA, for comparison this one is year 200X and does not have any tooling or 4th axis. Newer, not really any better looking as far as the pics show. That one is 13K.

    As far as going with something other than a VMC, I gave it some quick thought. I would rather make the leap and get into full throttle than buy an intermediate machine. In the long run I would end up going with a VMC so I then have to go through the whole process all over again. Kind of taking off a band-aid, just do it and get it over with, but more expensive.

    I am not set on this particular machine, I know its not the only one out there. I don't want to go to a dealer, I prefer private seller as you can get some background or at least know if you can somewhat trust the guy. If not, I'll walk away.

    As for the amount I want to spend. If I could keep it under $20K that would be great. If its more I would have to give it some thought.

    That machine also has a 32mp controll sů itís either been heavily upgraded or itís pretty new. With tooling thatís an even better deal. What type of machine is the 200x one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    That machine also has a 32mp controll sů it’s either been heavily upgraded or it’s pretty new. With tooling that’s an even better deal. What type of machine is the 200x one?
    It has been upgraded, the previous company was a large company and they maintained it. The screen is 2yrs old and it has some other newer parts. The seller did mention that the spindle coolant does blow a seal every now and then, unknown reason. He said he rarely used it the spindle coolant.

    For the other Fadal, it is a 2006. I mixed the price up with another machine I was looking at, this one does not have a price on it.
    42 Fadal VMC - business/commercial - by owner - sale

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    That other machine is nice. Iíve been wanting a Fadal with sidemount toolchanger. For 13k thatís a good deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Thankyou for clarifying the 4020 situation I misunderstood.

    I suggested that because itís a good easy to maintain machine that will also hold it value and if he messes something up will have parts available for cheap. Remember he is going from 100% manual to a vmc. I also dont feel from what he stated that he needs a fast new machine. He will get by with 700ipm rapids and 10 second tool changes.
    No worries. A Fadal may well be a good fit for the OP. It's a box way machine, and he is cutting a lot of steel. He's going to learn a new control anyway- it's not like he's an Okuma or Fanuc guy already. He will have that learning curve no matter what he buys, one is not much different than another in that respect.

    The parts will determine the minimum requirements for the machine. Then I make wish list of things that aren't required, but are nice to have. Side mount tool changer, chip conveyor, through spindle coolant, 4th, pallets, whatever.

    Then set the budget and figure out what items on the wish list you can really get.

    I think we both agree that 10K above and beyond will get most any basic machine on the floor making chips, but rigging and transport can be a significant cost on a used machine if there is very far to travel.

    And power requirement. I almost bought a 40" Mori that was a great machine, but it needed 200 amps and that was just more than I wanted to allocate to what I was going to use the machine for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    The main spindle motor is 10hp. You may (a 20hp converter would work) be able to run it on that converter but I’m not sure Fadal does not recommend running them on converters. You can do it but you have to make sure the generated leg does not go to the control. Or for about $800 you can buy the single phase transformer and run that.
    I can't get 3phase to my shop. So I have to run a phase convertor, I have the American Rotary set up for cnc. If needed I would get the transformer.

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    Either rotary or the transformer youíll be fine Iíd say. I may be selling my Vmc15XT soon if you donít find anything you like. Itís single phase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Thankyou for clarifying the 4020 situation I misunderstood.

    I suggested that because it’s a good easy to maintain machine that will also hold it value and if he messes something up will have parts available for cheap. Remember he is going from 100% manual to a vmc. I also dont feel from what he stated that he needs a fast new machine. He will get by with 700ipm rapids and 10 second tool changes.
    That is exactly what I am looking for. I don't need the latest and greatest that is extremely fast. I need a solid reliable machine that is supported by readily available parts. I don't see myself getting into mass production, I will stay with lower production numbers. I can meet current timelines with manual machines so a cnc would make it no problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    cnc mill - tools - by owner - sale

    Looks like a good deal with a 4th axis aswell.
    I don't think that's even a 4020, I think it's a VMC40. Only 22" of X travel. Check out the 5th picture in that ad, it shows the model no. on the spindle.

    I thought those pics looked funny- I think the seller is misidentifying the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I don't think that's even a 4020, I think it's a VMC40. Only 22" of X travel. Check out the 5th picture in that ad, it shows the model no. on the spindle.

    I thought those pics looked funny- I think the seller is misidentifying the machine.
    I think you may be right does look kinda narrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    That is exactly what I am looking for. I don't need the latest and greatest that is extremely fast. I need a solid reliable machine that is supported by readily available parts.
    Mid-2000's is definitely not the latest and greatest, but it's new enough that it should be reliable and easy to find parts.

    Sharp SV2412's of that era are solid little mills in your price range, people run them on phase converters all the time. They are 24" machines, and will have a Fanuc control. They have a very compact footprint and weigh about 6,000 lbs.

    I have a 2005, it's given me 12 years of trouble-free service. Here it is without the coolant tank just before I moved it to another spot.

    Footprint is 6' x 6'. It's a box way machine. Rigid little mill for it's size- it cuts steel better than my VF2.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sharpmill.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    I think you may be right does look kinda narrow.
    At first I thought it was just the aspect ratio, but look how big the carousel is in relation to the spindle. And how narrow the doors are.

    VMC40 was early 90's vintage, that machine became the 2216.


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