Letting a guy go. Did I handle it right?

gear cutter · Sep 6, 2018

I let a young guy go today. I have been going over this in my head for a while and I'm not sure I did the right thing. He's been with me for 8 months. When I hired him He stated he had some machining experience and he did. He showed up every day early. No drugs, no drinking problem, decent guy. A little naive and didn't always no when to keep his mouth shut. But a good kid overall.
Now the issues. My main machinist would set up a CNC mill or lathe and then his function was to operate, load unload and check parts. He was fast as hell at it but he just couldn't grasp checking his work. He knows how to read measuring tools quite well so I didn't understand why he kept overlooking this.
His other job was deburr of gears from the production machines. This he just didn't get. Out of 100 hindered parts he would leave burrs on 70%or them. I talked to him several times about each issue. He would straighten up for a couple days and then right back to missing details.
Today my foreman and I sat him down and talked to him. We asked him if he didn't understand what we expected of him. He said he did. We asked if he had what he needed to do the job. He said yes. I provide the tools he needed. We asked if our instructions are clear enough and if he had enough training. He said yes.
I asked him if he had any idea why he thought he was having so many problems doing this work. It is the same parts. repetitive work not a lot of changes. He stated that he has ADHD and that it wouldn't let him stay focused on the work. I asked if he takes anything for it and he said no. I asked if he ever thought about taking anything for it and he said no. He gave no explanation why.
My oldest daughter is really ADHD. Shes takes a prescription for it and she does fine. She worked for me over the summer and she did everything he was doing just fine.
Should I have tried working with him more? I know I can't tell him he has to be on medication to work for me. He gave no indication of going that route. The costs for rework and scrapped parts where starting to get up there. I know a little of his background from what my other employees have told me and it was pretty rough. Despite that he turned out pretty good. That is why I am second guessing my decision.
Any thoughts on this?

Derek Smalls · Sep 6, 2018

You say he had machining experience before he came to your shop and he could use measuring equipment correctly, also that when you would talk to him he would improve for a while. Did you ever try him at something other than repetitive, low level work? Is is possible that he was getting bored out of his mind and had trouble working through that boredom?

CalG · Sep 6, 2018

I'm no HR guy.

If the employee was costing you money, and you explained the issues multiple times , provided details and instructions with positive replies, I say you have done what any employer would have to do.

On the human level, I feel your dilema. The young man is likely just this far from making it or breaking it.

IT being life.

thermite · Sep 6, 2018

gear cutter said:
I let a young guy go today. I have been going over this in my head for a while and I'm not sure I did the right thing. He's been with me for 8 months. When I hired him He stated he had some machining experience and he did. He showed up every day early. No drugs, no drinking problem, decent guy. A little naive and didn't always no when to keep his mouth shut. But a good kid overall.
Now the issues. My main machinist would set up a CNC mill or lathe and then his function was to operate, load unload and check parts. He was fast as hell at it but he just couldn't grasp checking his work. He knows how to read measuring tools quite well so I didn't understand why he kept overlooking this.
His other job was deburr of gears from the production machines. This he just didn't get. Out of 100 hindered parts he would leave burrs on 70%or them. I talked to him several times about each issue. He would straighten up for a couple days and then right back to missing details.
Today my foreman and I sat him down and talked to him. We asked him if he didn't understand what we expected of him. He said he did. We asked if he had what he needed to do the job. He said yes. I provide the tools he needed. We asked if our instructions are clear enough and if he had enough training. He said yes.
I asked him if he had any idea why he thought he was having so many problems doing this work. It is the same parts. repetitive work not a lot of changes. He stated that he has ADHD and that it wouldn't let him stay focused on the work. I asked if he takes anything for it and he said no. I asked if he ever thought about taking anything for it and he said no. He gave no explanation why.
My oldest daughter is really ADHD. Shes takes a prescription for it and she does fine. She worked for me over the summer and she did everything he was doing just fine.
Should I have tried working with him more? I know I can't tell him he has to be on medication to work for me. He gave no indication of going that route. The costs for rework and scrapped parts where starting to get up there. I know a little of his background from what my other employees have told me and it was pretty rough. Despite that he turned out pretty good. That is why I am second guessing my decision.
Any thoughts on this?

He'd never change if he didn't have to change. If he needs meds for ADHD to get and keep a job?

Better he faces that sooner, not later. You may have done him a major service.

You cannot boil ALL of the ocean in any case.

guest · Sep 7, 2018

When I was first starting out I got sloppy on some parts. I knew better, I'd made them before. The owner stuck me in the burr room for a couple days. That straightened me right out.

Some people just aren't suited for some jobs. If they are good employees I try to find somewhere else they will work out. But if there's nowhere else to put the guy, you have to let him go. It's the sucky part of the job, but your responsibilities go beyond a single person. It's not fair to the rest of the guys to make them carry someone who can't do his job.

BSCustoms · Sep 7, 2018

So as someone that has lived with ADHD my entire life and as the child of two parents that are in the industry of helping kids like this I can give my input.

It is quite likely that he was not being challenged. I had a long hard time in school because I would get work done quickly and find things to busy me. Idle minds do the devils work. I am quick to get bored with repetitive tasks, I try to find challenges to keep me going. If I am running production that may mean trying to push my tools and set ups. Or it may mean counting butterflies. I went the med route and moved away from it with life style skills. It sounds like as an employer you did what was right, but maybe as a human you could have done more. This is not a bash only an outside perspective.

thermite · Sep 7, 2018

BSCustoms said:
So as someone that has lived with ADHD my entire life and as the child of two parents that are in the industry of helping kids like this I can give my input.

It is quite likely that he was not being challenged. I had a long hard time in school because I would get work done quickly and find things to busy me. Idle minds do the devils work. I am quick to get bored with repetitive tasks, I try to find challenges to keep me going. If I am running production that may mean trying to push my tools and set ups. Or it may mean counting butterflies. I went the med route and moved away from it with life style skills. It sounds like as an employer you did what was right, but maybe as a human you could have done more. This is not a bash only an outside perspective.

Good points, but I'm not sure it WAS ADHD. Or at least "not only" or "not simple".

The individual claimed so. That's the only source.

But only a portion of the behaviour pattern seems to fit - not all of it. Above my current pay grade, but he probably needed more through medical assessment. Or at least corroboration.

adama · Sep 7, 2018

Over here you would possibly be border line flouting the disability discrimination laws. Here your very much expected to put thing's in place to aid people with disabilities as a employer, now only if there's no possible way to do this would you be allowed to let them go. You have clearly diagnosed that its not will full laziness at the rout cause of this, IMHO you realy need to get some legal advice and fast about ways forwards, equally like in a lot of these cases, it sounds like theres potential for a good worker to be had if you can find the fixes.

Getting that balance right and fair is a legal and moral nightmare though. Running the night shift i use too have upwards of 10 people at times to watch over and it becomes a huge issue having just 1 or 2 who need the kinda level of checking to keep them safely productive.

Getting correct medical help even over here with a NHS for these kinda issues takes time and a real drive that people with these conditions just don't tend to have. Fine if they get treated - diagnosed as kids with the help of parents, but actually getting help themselves is a really low success rate, multiple appointments, multiple back and forwards between therapists - GP's and all by some one that has issues remembering and organising stuff does just not tend to go well. You have to get assessed, then find the right medication that helps, equally some of the things that make him a good worker stands a high chance of changing on meds too IME, your daughter is one of the luckier ones who the meds are a good working fit for.

Bobw · Sep 7, 2018

BSCustoms said:
So as someone that has lived with ADHD my entire life and as the child of two parents that are in the industry of helping kids like this I can give my input.

It is quite likely that he was not being challenged. I had a long hard time in school because I would get work done quickly and find things to busy me. Idle minds do the devils work. I am quick to get bored with repetitive tasks, I try to find challenges to keep me going. If I am running production that may mean trying to push my tools and set ups. Or it may mean counting butterflies. I went the med route and moved away from it with life style skills. It sounds like as an employer you did what was right, but maybe as a human you could have done more. This is not a bash only an outside perspective.

If he's not doing the job, you do have to let him go...

Some people just are not meant for repetitive work. I suck at it.. I've always sucked at it.
Early elementary school, they bumped me down to remedial reading, for about a week, that didn't
work.. So in comes the school shrink, and they suggested that my parents medicate me.. NO!!!

So on non-PE days, a nice lady would come get me out of class for an hour.. And we would spend
about half that hour doing physical things, kicking a ball, climbing a rope, shooting baskets,
there were even a few days that I got to just run up and down the hall ways.. Then we would
do some brain bending stuff, science, math, current events, puzzles... Seemed to help..

Fortunately where I grew up, there was a really cool Saturday and Summer program.. So in 1982
at 7 years I was taking computer programming classes on Saturdays.. Lots of other fun stuff too,
Ancient Board Games was a blast.. Rocketry.. Electronics.. I took pottery
twice.. One summer I took 'fishin', we'd just go fishing for 3 hours every morning.. A couple of
wild life/biology classes where we would go out in the woods or digging in the pond and collecting
samples, and we'd get all nice and muddy.. And I took Chemistry once.. Lots of fun, and I'm sure
it helped...

Back to running parts, I have to turn it into some kind of a game, or I go out of my mind also.. If
there isn't any down time, I'm fine, but if there is some down time, its horrible.. Ran a little
short one yesterday. 2 and a half minutes, and it took about 90 seconds to 2 minutes to deburr it
all and check it... That 30 seconds waiting for the machine to finish was pure torture.. Having
to stand there and do the same thing over and over again was absolute hell...

Firing people always sucks, there has only been one that I enjoyed.. Sometimes you have a good
kid/person and they just aren't hacking it... You(or at least I) have to try and make it work,
and a lot of times you can figure out what makes them tick, and what motivates them.. But when
nothing works, they got to go. Its not so bad when its their own choices that are holding them back,
but it really sucks when they literally just can't do it and they are trying.

CarbideBob · Sep 7, 2018

"Never look back ... therein lies shear madness" not sure where I picked up this quote but it has served me.
You made the call good or bad who knows but it was the call.
Bob

DDoug · Sep 7, 2018

Did he have a phone with him ?

AdHd + Smart Phone ON at all times = over caffeinated Squirrel.

It's not your job to play piss-sike-cologist.... :nutter:

Hodge · Sep 7, 2018

adama said:
Over here you would possibly be border line flouting the disability discrimination laws. Here your very much expected to put thing's in place to aid people with disabilities as a employer, now only if there's no possible way to do this would you be allowed to let them go. You have clearly diagnosed that its not will full laziness at the rout cause of this, IMHO you realy need to get some legal advice and fast about ways forwards, equally like in a lot of these cases, it sounds like theres potential for a good worker to be had if you can find the fixes.

Getting that balance right and fair is a legal and moral nightmare though. Running the night shift i use too have upwards of 10 people at times to watch over and it becomes a huge issue having just 1 or 2 who need the kinda level of checking to keep them safely productive.

Getting correct medical help even over here with a NHS for these kinda issues takes time and a real drive that people with these conditions just don't tend to have. Fine if they get treated - diagnosed as kids with the help of parents, but actually getting help themselves is a really low success rate, multiple appointments, multiple back and forwards between therapists - GP's and all by some one that has issues remembering and organising stuff does just not tend to go well. You have to get assessed, then find the right medication that helps, equally some of the things that make him a good worker stands a high chance of changing on meds too IME, your daughter is one of the luckier ones who the meds are a good working fit for.

Adama probably has a better grasp of the situation than most. As one who has been dealing with it for as long as i can remember it has made life challenging at times... to say the least. From what i can tell there is no one size fits all when it comes to behavior, diagnoses, or treatment. A few of the hallmarks: impulsivenes, forgetfulness, inability to multitask or stay on point for extended periods, many more subtle differences that make up the square peg in a round hole scenario. Some learn to live with it successfully, other's not so much. Bottom line what comes easy to most is usually a struggle for those who truly have issues with ADHD. Part of the problem lies in that most people including the individual don't realize their perception of what's normal is somewhat skewed for lack of a better term. Allowing one to use it as a crutch is not the answer however having a little understanding certainly helps. I seemed to have subscribed to the school of hard knocks so to speak and i suspect it holds true for most. To the op's concern, you have a business to run, only you can decide if you have the time and patience for that individual to get up to speed. It requires a dedication on his part to do better as well. Good luck.

As an aside utilizing a smart phone to stay organised has helped tremendously for all those things that i routinely forget.

gbent · Sep 7, 2018

You have to keep the business separated from your desire to do social good. To do otherwise isn't fair to the other employees.

Mcgyver · Sep 7, 2018

digger doug said:
Did he have a phone with him ?

first thought I had....candy crusher might have been the problem. Its too bad you couldn't figure it out as he had a lot of qualities that are, as amazing as it sounds, difficult to find.....but if he couldn't do the job you needed him to, there's not much choice.

I'm on the hunt for youth, average age is too high in my place. But its just so difficult, we just had to let another one go. Four weeks into it, he hadn't made it in yet for a one full week. Forget ability and knowledge, I'm just trying to find one that shows up 5 days in a row.

Aejgx6 · Sep 7, 2018

It sounds like you handled it as good as you could have. It is his responsibility to cope with it. From my experience he will prob learn to deal with it in time. By the way, I’m a card carrying nut job and I learned to use it to my advantage. Some days I wish I could see the inside of the box though..

Peter from Holland · Sep 7, 2018

Can you get someone better???

Peter

gear cutter · Sep 7, 2018

Derek Smalls said:
You say he had machining experience before he came to your shop and he could use measuring equipment correctly, also that when you would talk to him he would improve for a while. Did you ever try him at something other than repetitive, low level work? Is is possible that he was getting bored out of his mind and had trouble working through that boredom?

Yes. With the same results.

gear cutter · Sep 7, 2018

BSCustoms said:
So as someone that has lived with ADHD my entire life and as the child of two parents that are in the industry of helping kids like this I can give my input.

It is quite likely that he was not being challenged. I had a long hard time in school because I would get work done quickly and find things to busy me. Idle minds do the devils work. I am quick to get bored with repetitive tasks, I try to find challenges to keep me going. If I am running production that may mean trying to push my tools and set ups. Or it may mean counting butterflies. I went the med route and moved away from it with life style skills. It sounds like as an employer you did what was right, but maybe as a human you could have done more. This is not a bash only an outside perspective.

I tried having him do almost every job in the shop. And trained him before I let him alone with that job. He just kept missing the details. He did a lot of things only half way.

gear cutter · Sep 7, 2018

Mcgyver said:
first thought I had....candy crusher might have been the problem. Its too bad you couldn't figure it out as he had a lot of qualities that are, as amazing as it sounds, difficult to find.....but if he couldn't do the job you needed him to, there's not much choice.

I'm on the hunt for youth, average age is too high in my place. But its just so difficult, we just had to let another go. Four weeks into it, he hadn't made in yet for a full week. Forget ability and knowledge, I'm just trying to find one that shows up 5 days in a row.

That's the really sucky part. He was here waiting on the parking lot when I got here. I think he wanted to do this he just couldn't do it completely. Another shop owner told me once " Those who want to can't. And those that can don't want to"

Alloy Mcgraw · Sep 7, 2018

It's not a businesses responsibility to diagnose and solve an employees mental conditions. Someone is hired to do a job, they either can meet the requirements, or not.

As far as helping someone out on a human level(Completely separate from business, and must be viewed as such), only the individual can decide what is the "right" thing to do.

If the OP questions his/her decision enough to ask for advise, my opinion would be he/she feels they should have done more, and they are looking for support of their decision for reassurance.

My personal opinion would be to let go of anyone who cannot perform the duties they were hired to do. By all means do charity work if so inclined, but don't mix it with the daily runnings of your business. IMO emotional thinking and business do not mix.

Letting a guy go. Did I handle it right?

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