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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Oh for Petey's sakes (in my best Spanky impression) your $100K is only worth $100K if everyone else is making $75K.

    If everyone else comes up to his level, he will find himself in the bloody poor house!

    This is the same as raising min wage to $40.
    That just means that the high end help will be making $120 and the cost of life will follow as well.

    This isn't rocket science....


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Ox:

    Everyone making more, doesn't mean everyone making the same.
    There's always gonna be the slackers and such who don't bring home a lot, as I said earlier.
    But as others have pointed out, here in NJ, the poverty line is around $70k. Let's face it, If you've got any kind of brains and talent you shouldn't be hovering around there just because someone else is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    You guys that keep harping on this unemployment thing... Have you ever actually looked at it?

    I mean, here in Florida, unemployment is $275/week for a maximum of 8 weeks.

    Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, even in the most hillbilly parts of Florida is living high on the hog for $275/week.

    That's not even a day's pay for a lot of people here...
    I would venture a guess that is on the low end, all states are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CITIZEN F16 View Post
    I would venture a guess that is on the low end, all states are different.
    Big difference between states when it comes to the cost of doing business which certainly has an effect on how employee pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by standardparts View Post
    Big difference between states when it comes to the cost of doing business which certainly has an effect on how employee pay.
    When I was facing layoffs in april2020 my state would have basically provided my full salary (not quite)...I think people think that unemployed people are still making as much money as they were back then on unemployment. That level of benefit has steadily tapered off.

    If I went on unemployment now I would 100% have trouble paying the bills. No one living the high life on unemployment in any of our 50 states

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  6. #45
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    I got my first job in about 72. And in all that time, I have not seen wages go DOWN, not even once, no matter how high I thought they were. If you really believe wages are going to magically go down, I got a bridge to sell you.

    Manufacturing wages have been losing ground against expenses for 40 years, easy. I know guys who made 20 bucks an hour in the late 70s, and I know shops today that expect to pay 20 bucks an hour- does not compute, to quote Prince.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Oh for Petey's sakes (in my best Spanky impression) your $100K is only worth $100K if everyone else is making $75K.

    If everyone else comes up to his level, he will find himself in the bloody poor house!

    This is the same as raising min wage to $40.
    That just means that the high end help will be making $120 and the cost of life will follow as well.

    This isn't rocket science....


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    The point that was mentioned by someone else is not that 100K should be rich or some mythical number. If machinists were making 100-150K then a software dev might be making 200-250. The point is that the median wages are flatlining while the top 10-25% of earners are seeing their salaries gaining like a parabolic curve. A little more even spread on the salary gains across the spectrum of wage earners sure would be nice....

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    here in NJ, the poverty line is around $70k
    Here in rural southwest Virginia, that's a pretty good living.

    For example, a nice ~2,000 sq. ft. house in a subdivision is $200-$250k...(usually, until the latest inflation madness anyway!) Nice 2BR apartments are $650-$900 per month rent.

    You guys in Cali/NY/NJ have to realize it's not nearly as expensive to live in other parts of the country, particularly the rural south.

    In our part of the country, shops are bidding in the $60 to $90 per hour range for 2-axis turning and 3-axis milling work. (Was stuck around $60 for what, three DECADES?!)

    The Amazon/call center-types start around $17 per hour around here. These warehouse jobs suck bad, so it's not hard for a shop to create a much "better" job, even if it doesn't have the full-equivalent in bennies an Amazon-type competitor provides.

    Because of regional labor competition, here at the Cathouse we start a warm body with no shop experience around $18/hr.

    And everybody is hammering shop and factory owners for not paying more, but once we became a one-world economy (especially with China), OF COURSE owners are going to have to squeeze wages! If we are going to have any jobs at all, the company has to COMPETE, and win purchase orders.

    And make no mistake, the people creating these purchase orders (that make the industrial world go around) are trained to go with the low bidder, unless circumstances warrant otherwise.

    Oh, and for the healthcare thing, yes it sucks. But some of you guys need to get use to the idea of paying more for your own healthcare. We've all been spoiled, where the group healthcare plan we were in was cheap, and paid about everything.

    Just not reality anymore, too many people in the plan costing the plan too much, and the care is expensive as hell anyway.

    Healthcare.gov can save a working man and his family money on his health insurance, families under ~$100k gets help. (Single is under ~$60k)

    IMO, any family making over $100k shouldn't be whining about their health insurance premiums and co-pays, if you make that kinda dough, pay your bills. Or move someplace that's cheaper to live. Or work two jobs...something.

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post

    Oh, and for the healthcare thing, yes it sucks. But some of you guys need to get use to the idea of paying more for your own healthcare. We've all been spoiled, where the group healthcare plan we were in was cheap, and paid about everything.

    Just not reality anymore, too many people in the plan costing the plan too much, and the care is expensive as hell anyway.

    Healthcare.gov can save a working man and his family money on his health insurance, families under ~$100k gets help. (Single is under ~$60k)

    IMO, any family making over $100k shouldn't be whining about their health insurance premiums and co-pays, if you make that kinda dough, pay your bills. Or move someplace that's cheaper to live. Or work two jobs...something.

    ToolCat

    Wait are you seriously justifying high healthcare costs? Do you like getting screwed over? I simply don't get that..you're saying we should all stop complaining about paying 10% or more of our salaries so we can get raped by the for-profit healthcare industry...the same industry that was found guilty of causing and perpetuating the largest opioid crisis of all time...

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    Long ago (early 80s) $30 per hour the bottom charged rate for machine work and wages at 8 to 10 for many.
    Now it is 60 per hour and base wages?? Well they are 16 to 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    Ehhhh your thesis has a glaring problem.

    Let's say it is correct. So yea businesses are throwing money at people just to get warm bodies in the door to keep the business running.

    So in 18 months what do you expect to happen? The business is just going to massively cut wages all of a sudden? The stock person is just going to accept going from $18/hr down to $14/hr? And prospective employees are going to take that lying down?

    No, the answer is clear. The current employee facing a wage cut is going to say F this, I am out and the prospective employee won't even consider that place because a store down the street is still offering $18/hour.

    Wages aren't going to go DOWN lmao. People are demanding more and clearly they refuse to work for less. What makes you think that will change? Many states have already expired their expanded unemployment schemes and the problem is persisting, so the issue involves alot more than just unemployment benefits.
    We will see, supply and demand will dictate what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    We've been quite busy for some time now. probably time to add one or two new guys. Trying to think what a decent wage would be for an entry level guy.
    I hear an add on the radio for a place that sells shipping supplies. Starting pay for warehouse help is $30/hr.
    I go by McDonalds, sign in the window, starting pay for burger flippers $18/hr.
    Another huge warehouse, starting pay for unskilled help $22/hr

    So how much for good shop help? $40 for an operator, $50 for a decent setup guy? This is insane. There's no way I can pay people that much, not that I wouldn't want to, the numbers don't add up.

    Where are you guys at with all this?
    I will be the first to admit, my entire career has been in the repair world and it's quite different than the production shops. Or in actuality contract manufacturing.
    But I read people's posts about pay and I am totally amazed. I served my apprenticeship and was getting over 15.00 hr in the 70's.
    I sold my business in 2005 and was paying 28-45.00 per hour then.
    I have a fair size shop that I run with one helper for something to do that I started a few years ago and if I was looking for someone I would expect to pay 40.00+ to get someone with a little experience.
    Competitor shops in my area charge 120-150 per hour.
    I have had customers offer me jobs to come in to their shops and work 40-50.00 plus full corp benifit plans. And as many hours as I want to work.
    I also recognize the requirements to run a cnc lathe and a manual horizontal boring mill are quite different but I sure don't think it's 12-15 bucks vs 40-50 bucks different.
    As one person pointed out you get what you pay for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post

    Because of regional labor competition, here at the Cathouse we start a warm body with no shop experience around $18/hr

    ToolCat

    I do not base pay on what the "going rate" allows.

    The best way to find out if an applicant is worthy is to pay him minimum wage for 6 months. Many of these kids do not know how to loosen or tighten a bolt. The overwhelmingly majority of these applicants are worthless at negative levels of pay.

    6 months is my threshold of training.

    After 6-9 months, will talk pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McClure Machine View Post
    I will be the first to admit, my entire career has been in the repair world and it's quite different than the production shops. Or in actuality contract manufacturing.
    Can't easily outsource an on-site mechanical repair.

    For a better comparison to machinists, look at the pay for A&P mechanics and instrument techs. Back in the day, fixing jumbo jets (or their electronics) was a pretty solid profession. However, very few of them are still getting great wages, because most airlines have decided to just move their repair center to wherever the cost of labor is the cheapest. If things start to get too expensive in the SouthEast US, many will just start flying out of country for repairs (if they can).

    Sure, wages have done a poor job of indexing to inflation, but the bottom line is that most of us on here have to compete with a global market where labor costs are often approaching zero. Many of us won't be able to charge more until the cost of doing business elsewhere increases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    I have what you may consider Cadillac insurance and I had orthopedic hardware put in. The insurance claim said the all in cost was $45,000! Ended up paying about $5k out of pocket christ almighty.
    I could have saved you some money, I've got a bunch of plates and screws laying around. Never even been used!

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    I do not base pay on what the "going rate" allows.

    The best way to find out if an applicant is worthy is to pay him minimum wage for 6 months. Many of these kids do not know how to loosen or tighten a bolt. The overwhelmingly majority of these applicants are worthless at negative levels of pay.

    6 months is my threshold of training.

    After 6-9 months, will talk pay.
    I think I've spotted why your applicants can't loosen or tighten a bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    This almost 100 large real? And then they said okay to $5800.
    How in the world is there any sense here?
    In our real life imagine the bill for parts made is $94.5K.... but I will take a payment of $5.8K. What??
    If you had not had insurance what would you have done with this bill?
    Wow.
    I had an un-insured hospital bill of $70k+. They sent me a letter saying since I didn't have insurance they would *accept* something around $6k so ya it happens...

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    ToolCat has a point, as he is in a lower cost area of the Country.
    However, I'm not about to pack up and move, I'm here, so is my family.
    Shops have to learn to pay going wages, and for good help, here in the NY metro area, that means really good money.

    Supply and demand play a part in this - really good machinists and employees are a rarity - that equals expensive.
    Cheap employees have their own kind of expensive, it just comes a little later, like when you have to re-align a turret or tail stock. Or take a load of parts back for re-work, or worse - scrap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    Or take a load of parts back for re-work, or worse - scrap.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa...take it easy on the "S" word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgin View Post
    Whoa, whoa, whoa...take it easy on the "S" word.
    There always a second time to do it right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    ... the bottom line is that most of us on here have to compete with a global market where labor costs are often approaching zero.
    This is the conventional thought, which we inherited from Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein, the Rockefellers, the Waltons ... but even before they hit the propaganda trail, it was widely recognized that labor was maybe ten, fifteen percent of the cost of any item. In repair or specialty work maybe more but ... why do we so readily blame the 15% and ignore the 85% ?

    I don't think Chinese labor is that much cheaper ... plus, in relation to other people in that society, it's actually more expensive. The underlying (and to me, the real) problem is, everything in the US is wacked-out nuts crazy expensive.

    Why is a house that cost $70,000 in 1980 now selling for $700,000+ ? If you say "inflation", well, hey buddy, that's government policy. Paul Krugman et al. They are all pissing their pants scared of 'deflation' but we know from Newton that what goes up, must come down. Which is better, a little ongoing up and down or a never-ending up until it does, then a gigantic crash ? How much fun was 2007-8-9 ?

    Many of us won't be able to charge more until the cost of doing business elsewhere increases.
    Don't plan on it. That kind of thing depends on government policy. Where the government is interested in shovelling all the goodies to Lloyd and Jamie and Steve and Bill, then you get what the US has. If the government is focused on providing a decent standard of living to the masses, then your prophecy ain't gonna happen. This kind of thing really is controllable.


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