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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Just a for instance...there is not one job making under 21 an hour where I work. Caveat, you start at 3/4 pay, then get a large bump at I think 6 months then full amount plus raise at 1 year.
    21 times .75 is 15.75 starting so in line with our starting out Phokingminh fresh out of trade school.
    Where did things go so wrong?
    More important is will it change and make up some of the lost ground? Have cncs, CAD/CAM, automation, and outsourcing changed the landscape forever of a base machinist job?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    So how much for good shop help? $40 for an operator, $50 for a decent setup guy? This is insane. There's no way I can pay people that much, not that I wouldn't want to, the numbers don't add up.
    Herein lies a very real problem for a shop owner. Want to pay well and good money but the checkbook will not allow it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    21 times .75 is 15.75 starting so in line with our starting out Phokingminh fresh out of trade school.
    Where did things go so wrong?
    More important is will it change and make up some of the lost ground? Have cncs, CAD/CAM, automation, and outsourcing changed the landscape forever of a base machinist job?
    Bob
    This isn't for machinist jobs, this is for shop floor people like wax injectors, cutting of gates with a saw, carting parts from one area to a other, or grinding the cut gates flat on machines. Different jobs have different rates of course. Not sure why they do it the way they do but it is what it is...you also must be an American citizen or have a green card to work there, no exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I've always felt that it was my job as an employee to make the employer a profit. Some bosses that I've had couldn't look good if they got gold plated. If the boss can't make himself or herself look good that's their problem, not mine.
    Um, Don't take this the wrong way, but after the way you've treated me in other threads here, I can safely say that it would be best if you go away from this thread that is meant to be HELPFUL to a new guy.

    You are nothing but a hateful shrew that seeds vitriol wherever you go.

    Do us all a favor and stay in your own little hate filled world that is the covid thread.

    Thanks, and have a good day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CITIZEN F16 View Post
    Machinist wages and that of other trades have stagnated, they have not kept up with inflation.
    Oh really? Very insightful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
    Oh really? Very insightful.
    Why do you feel the need to make a smart ass comment? I don't engage you, typical liberal, always feeling the need to insult those that don't share your views. My comment was based on everybody and their brother complaining about wage stagnation for machinists, many who act like we are all alone, we are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    100% health, full bill copay lol
    Some of those plans will hit you with $20 co pays on each med and only give you a month at a time, when the cash price is less than $20. Walmart has prices as low as $4 for a month's supply on some prescription meds without insurance.

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    Woah let's pump the brakes here guys. We've been having a civil thread, no need to muck it up with this stuff.

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    As far as wage stagnation, it's really true. The best way to get more money is to go to another place. This is unfortunate, sometimes the owners or management just don't want to pay, other times they just plain can't afford it. The former is just greed, the later is just unfortunate. I can tell you this, I've never job hopped for a lower wage. I have been "let go" for a high wage though, it's known as head count. It's a sly sneaky way to do it, and if the hr rep that did it to me was a guy I'd probably have a criminal record for assault lolol.

    That's how much hate I harbor towards them. And how I know it was bs, they didn't even dispute unemployment even though I was fired for "stealing time and lying about a punch in time (13 minutes difference).
    Last edited by plastikdreams; 09-06-2021 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Edited for Ox :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    As far as wage stagnation, it's really true. The best way to get more money is to go to another place. This is unfortunate, sometimes the owners or management just don't want to pay, other times they just plain can't afford it. The former is just greed, the later is just unfortunate. I can tell you this, I've never job hopped for a lower wage. I have been "let go" for a high wage though, it's known as head count. It's a sly sneaky way to do it, and if the hr rep that did it to me was a guy I'd probably have a criminal record for assault lolol. The top manager that was in on it is pregnant I believe, [snip].

    That's how much hate I harbor towards them. And how I know it was bs, they didn't even dispute unemployment even though I was fired for "stealing time and lying about a punch in time (13 minutes difference).

    I was thinking this, and then you walked right into it:

    If you keep wiggling your way uphill, find yourself at the top of the pay, and have shown no loyalty to an employer - makes you really nothing more than a money whore that is only here today.

    You show an employer no loyalty in the good times, why would you expect loyalty in the bad times?
    If you are clear at the top of the pay, you should expect that you may git'cher walkin' papers as soon as the workload breaks the apex.

    The fella that has been here for several years, and is a key employee, he should expect job security on the downturn.


    I cannot believe that you actually posted that about her baby.
    I'm not going to edit it, but I wish that you would.


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I was thinking this, and then you walked right into it:

    If you keep wiggling your way uphill, find yourself at the top of the pay, and have shown no loyalty to an employer - makes you really nothing more than a money whore that is only here today.

    You show an employer no loyalty in the good times, why would you expect loyalty in the bad times?
    If you are clear at the top of the pay, you should expect that you may git'cher walkin' papers as soon as the workload breaks the apex.

    The fella that has been here for several years, and is a key employee, he should expect job security on the downturn.


    I cannot believe that you actually posted that about her baby.
    I'm not going to edit it, but I wish that you would.


    ------------------

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    Ox
    Your wish is my command. If you knew the circumstances you might understand why.

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    Thank you.

    Waylon had a hard time living with his comment "Hope your plane crashes".
    Learn from others mistakes.


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Thank you.

    Waylon had a hard time living with his comment "Hope your plane crashes".
    Learn from others mistakes.


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    You're welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    You show an employer no loyalty in the good times, why would you expect loyalty in the bad times?
    Very few employers treat their employees with loyalty these days. The days of the gold watch and pension are long gone. If the bean counters think they'll make a penny more without you, you're out.

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    OK, there are several different strands in this thread, and I'll offer observations on them (economics point of view, and point of view from within the software industry which is really quite different in some ways, but in other ways the same):

    1. "wage compression" is a real thing that happens a lot of places, and has to do with recruiting processes, inertia, switching costs.


    2. Even so, another thing, which you might encounter in places you wouldn't expect (such as MSFT during the glory years) is that any given job has a maximum worth - and any firm managed by people who want to stay in business will have learned not to pay more than the **job** is worth. You might be the best floor sweeper and mailroom delivery person to ever live, but those jobs are still worth very little. and indeed, in downturns, firms find they can outsource them, automate them, or simply do without them.

    As things get more automated, manufacturing, like lots of other sectors, will become more "hour glass" - people who can do really clever/difficult things get higher compensation, people who can do "easy" tasks that are so far very hard to automate will have jobs that pay little, and the middle will be squeezed out.

    This is why the "I couldn't afford to pay them that" is so very real.

    For the shop, for the employees, for their business -> get highly efficient or go dark.


    3. Wage stagnation is a real thing, but also a tricky thing. If you divvy it up by age group it looks different than the economy as a whole. And measuring for every working age person in the US can be misleading, because wages in high demand fields don't seem to be stagnated, while wages in "any healthy adult can do it, and is only needed because we haven't built a robot to do that yet" jobs are, in relative terms, falling - worse that stagnant.

    The current mismanagement of housing construction (with serious deep political and economic forces behind it) means that real estate prices are going to be a problem, and will be a problem for a very long time no matter what.


    4. Loyalty has to be bilateral, and sometimes it can't be. Sometimes firms simply go bankrupt and your loyalty to them is worth nothing, no matter how much they loved you. Sometimes layoffs and the like are mediated by unions or similar structures, contracts with other entities, and so forth. If your employer, or the product line you work on, gets sold to another firm, does your loyalty get sold with it? If you division gets spun out, what does that mean for "loyalty"?

    Yes, there are smallish firms where people and the firm take care of each other for long stretches of time - and that's a fine thing. But there are lots of circumstances where loyalty is kind of a nonsensical concept.

    There are some industries where super frequent job hopping raises a red flag, but changing every so often may not.


    5. When management isn't technical in the field of the business (managers and directors in software firms who aren't programmers or testers, managers in shops who are not machinists or manufacturing engineers or engineers at all, etc), said management may be blind to differences in a certain level of staff. What's more the business may be "blind" in the sense that the difference between the very best machinst IIIB and weakest machinist IIA doesn't affect the bottom line at all, while the IIIB is twice as costly an employee. Now, maybe there is a difference, maybe it's a real money-to-the-company difference, but if it's not visible (or cannot be made visible) it may not matter.

    As firms get large, they are ever more run by quota and budget systems, and ever more driven by things like the BOD saying "you **WILL** reduce staffing costs by x% or you will no longer be CEO" - so each division gets a similar order.

    This means that being pissed at the HR person who handed you papers may be misdirected anger. (Or not, I wasn't there.)

    So again, what does "loyalty" mean here?


    6. There's another side to this. Is this "loyal" employee actually as wonderful as they think they are? There's a dlibert cartoon which I sadly cannot find that shows employee evaulations. First frame is "employee view" and shows said person "walking on water", second frame is management view of employee, said employee has stapled his own shirt collar to his desk and is calling out "help, help, stapler misfire".



    I will note here that my career was VERY different from anything most of you have to deal with on a daily basis, and I don't presume to judge any of you. BUT:

    For the OP? Get efficient or go dark. For the employees - be part of forward looking profit centers rather than backward looking cost centers. For the economy as a whole? Before you think "this will change for the better soon" observe that the Soviet Union carried on its incompetent ways for 70+ years....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    Um, Don't take this the wrong way, but after the way you've treated me in other threads here, I can safely say that it would be best if you go away from this thread that is meant to be HELPFUL to a new guy.

    You are nothing but a hateful shrew that seeds vitriol wherever you go.

    Do us all a favor and stay in your own little hate filled world that is the covid thread.

    Thanks, and have a good day.
    If you want to suck your bosses balls that's your business but I never felt a need to do that type of thing. Or wash the bosses car on company time but I'm sure it happens. Who wouldn't want their ride nice and clean and tax deductible at that.

    I worked for employers to be a value added asset to them. Not to shine any bosses shoes. I'll bet you were the #1 suck ass at your job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    But somehow paying CEO's multi million dollar annual salaries doesn't affect inflation.

    Can someone please explain that to me.
    Sure, I'll help you out. Inflation is a result of the supply of money outpacing the supply of goods and services. A private corporation paying a CEO a huge salary at the expense of labor may or may not be good for the long term health of the business, results have varied, but that pay cannot create inflation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I was thinking this, and then you walked right into it:

    If you keep wiggling your way uphill, find yourself at the top of the pay, and have shown no loyalty to an employer - makes you really nothing more than a money whore that is only here today.

    You show an employer no loyalty in the good times, why would you expect loyalty in the bad times?
    If you are clear at the top of the pay, you should expect that you may git'cher walkin' papers as soon as the workload breaks the apex.

    The fella that has been here for several years, and is a key employee, he should expect job security on the downturn.


    I cannot believe that you actually posted that about her baby.
    I'm not going to edit it, but I wish that you would.


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Ox

    While you make a good point, here's something to consider.
    While loyalty may look great on a resume, it really doesn't build a salary. Employers are no less loyal, laying off folk in a heart beat or
    otherwise getting rid of people for reasons having little to do with job performance.
    An employee should be different? I was loyal to an employer for years, never a promotion, never an advancement. Then one day, "oh sorry, good bye" - and it was all gone.
    The loyalty has to go both ways, and sadly, it really doesn't. Staying at one employer for decades was a '60s and '70s thing, that went away and really isn't coming back.
    I learned the hard way.

    Thankfully, I made the decision to employ myself - it was the right move for me.

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  23. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Sure, I'll help you out. Inflation is a result of the supply of money outpacing the supply of goods and services. A private corporation paying a CEO a huge salary at the expense of labor may or may not be good for the long term health of the business, results have varied, but that pay cannot create inflation.
    The reason that the supply shortages cause inflation is that supply and demand increases prices. Are you saying that you don't think paying multi million dollar salaries to executives adds to the cost of selling things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Someone posted that the poverty level in NJ is 70K a year. I simply asked if that was for a family of 30.
    In NJ, $70k for a family of 3, it's a very real thing. We are basically driven by the NYC rent/wage market. Many folk, after living in New York for years and years, give up with all the taxes and regulation and move to New Jersey, with its "almost New York" taxes and regulation and think they're living in the wild west by comparison.

    There were 5 houses sold within 2 blocks of where I live, all of them at the $550k and up price range, all snapped within 2 weeks of being listed and all had vehicles with NY plates in the driveways.

    All those skyscrapers you see in Manhattan, the janitor makes $80k, never mind the folk in the nice clothes. It's just relative to the area.
    Drive 2 hours west into Pa and everything drops dramatically.

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