Massive Seattle gear producer's sons fire all without notice, to cash out - Page 9
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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "INcomplete" phony. But he's working HARD with a buzz-phrase generator to improve that...
    It's a little weird how you follow me around, just to insult me.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Why is it that some people simply cannot suffer having their opinion challenged without resorting to ad hominem? For some certain people, one cannot find a single thread where their opinions are contradicted by another where they have not fallen back upon such immature response. To the point of base, droll predictability.

    And yet... time and time again, they enter a discussion that seemingly everyone involved knows ( or at least has the intelligence to gauge ) what direction it is headed in, and choose to repeat the same actions with Pavlovic fervor. One almost has to wonder about their stability, or at least their motivations.

    Almost. One would have to actually give a shite, first. And it's simply just too boring to do that.

    Fleeting amusement is much more entertaining.
    There is a saying among lawyers that if you don't have the facts on your side, then argue that the law is on your side. If the law is against your argument, then attack your opponent ad hominem.

    Thus, instead of addressing the issue at hand, you attack your opponent personally and make him the issue. It is used in court all of the time and can be very effective, even though it's basically dishonest and unethical.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    There is a saying among lawyers that if you don't have the facts on your side, then argue that the law is on your side. If the law is against your argument, then attack your opponent ad hominem.

    Thus, instead of addressing the issue at hand, you attack your opponent personally and make him the issue. It is used in court all of the time and can be very effective, even though it's basically dishonest and unethical.
    Never heard that one.
    Rules of evidence generally shut that down until sentencing unles proven behavior can go to pattern.
    Piss off a judge that way and you have a long uphill battle.

  4. #164
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    Come on guys, keep the ''extreme'' politics and name calling out of it,........we've heard it all before

    That gear co doing what it did was tough all round, I know, ...at 23 I had to hand out some of the redundancy notices for the family firm when it went bust, including 2 men I'd known, respected and learnt from since I was 12 years old, ......and take a lot of hostile shit and blatant aggression from several families in the area, one wife slapping my face in public, (shit, she had a mean right hand ) and another who spat at my feet, along with other who while nothing to do with the firm jumped on the bandwagon.

    Which when I was neither a director or shareholder, nor major decision maker, was totally unjustified,......but as the boss's son I'd do as the whipping boy.
    Last edited by Limy Sami; 02-19-2018 at 06:10 PM. Reason: added info

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  6. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Ludlow was an expertise of property rights.
    No one was ever convicted of anything.
    The workers were locked out and were interfering with the operation of the mine.
    They had every right to keep the mine open.

    Just because they can't do the same now does not mean they wouldn't.
    Why do you suppose the jobs go where workers have zero protections.

    The reason organized labor exists is to counter balance organized capital...capital being the property.

    Without balance you have feudalism.

    In this case it seems the idea was to eliminate the union, which helped build the company, from further action.Its a shitty end around the idea of balance.

    Sorry, I see this as more than just a property rights issue.



    This is what it comes down to.
    A workforce had unionized, capital found a way to break the union.

    No more no less.
    So, you're a Trump supporter, then? After all, he wants to close the borders to imports. Currently the fastest & simplest way to break a union and reduce wages is to offshore the entire biz. You guys have made an art form of it.

    PDW

  7. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    Come on guys, keep the ''extreme'' politics and name calling out of it,........we've heard it all before
    Very well said Sami,

    If you want to argue, go somewhere else. Free advise; never acknowledge or argue with a moron.
    Last edited by otrlt; 02-19-2018 at 07:36 PM.

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  9. #167
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    At the big company I worked for they searched the company truck I took home every night to see what I was stealing. I knew if they found something I’d get fired. So I only stole the trucks.

  10. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyhlucas View Post
    At the big company I worked for they searched the company truck I took home every night to see what I was stealing. I knew if they found something I’d get fired. So I only stole the trucks.
    Directors of a "Dominant Carrier" multi-national (60+ countries) phone company - back when domestic calls were still dear, and international ones scary expensive - got sort-of-free residential phone service. Business calls, out-of-office hours plentiful due to time zones - cheaper than having them itemized and claimed on an expense report. $50 for "personal", any over that "honour system" paid back to the firm.

    When I left, I hand carried a written directive to the appropriate department and to accounting & billing asking them to terminate that arrangement.
    Bill ceased.
    Service did not.

    Followed up two or three months later with a reminder, asked what I owed.

    Not a dime. No record of service.

    Forgot about it, as I had gone from DC to London, thence to Hong Kong.

    Kid brother, just back from 12 years in Egypt by way of a year in Italy and another in France all the while delighted that "house sitting" meant he could chat for hours with old friends overseas.

    Nine years later, that firm was reorganized, and the first monthly bill arrived.
    They still denied they had ever even carried any traffic during that gap.

    Sometimes, they steal from themselves. And cover it up.

  11. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    (Emphasis mine)
    If you were offering the above as proof Marx "understood the problem" I'd say you missed something rather fundamental. In the case under discussion here, there was somebody who could buy it. So the owners sold it (from the beach, apparently, piña coladas in both hands) for which act they have my admiration. The fact that the IAM is pissed off is just a bonus.
    I was only demonstrating that the demise of Communism was not all as good as we over here regard it. Galina's father has a PHD in botany, spent his life in teaching and research, then lost his pension in the breakup. He eventually got some of it.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Sorry...what did you say about no one buying them.
    The entire Russian economy is owned by a few dozen people.

    Those enterprises were privatized just fine thank you.
    Just the same as if the us sold off its mineral and land...the plutocrats here would buy them up.
    I was referring to what I have been told about the Bulgarian economy by one person, not the Russian economy.

    Interestingly, Galina says the Bulgarians like the Russians and says that despite being considered a Russian satellite, they apparently didn't feel that oppressed. A lot of pro Russian sentiment is from the Russians getting them loose from the Ottomans, who tried to convert an Eastern Church country to Islam.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    There is a saying among lawyers that if you don't have the facts on your side, then argue that the law is on your side. If the law is against your argument, then attack your opponent ad hominem.

    Thus, instead of addressing the issue at hand, you attack your opponent personally and make him the issue. It is used in court all of the time and can be very effective, even though it's basically dishonest and unethical.
    I was on a jury where a lawyer tried to do something like that. It was an auto accident case and the girl driving one car had her boyfriend with her. The lawyer noticed that they both had the same address but she was listed as single. With appropriate leer, he said "Have you set the date yet." The jury dismissed it completely on the grounds that it was an accident case, not a morals charge. We ruled against him because the facts were on her side, but his behavior didn't help. I would think that a judge who heard that sort of thing all day would be even less swayed.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I would think that a judge who heard that sort of thing all day would be even less swayed.

    Bill
    Had an acquaintance who leaned so heavily on nasty, Walt was eventually handed Contempt of Court, plus a disbarment over "You're a G*D-damned LIAR!" up close, VERY loud, and personal in a blameless witness' face.

    Didn't stop him permanently, even with the surname "Cheadle". All in the public record at the time. Might yet be.

    A few years of effort, and he was reinstated and back to practicing Law, same County & Court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Hmmm...
    Why do you suppose they unionized?
    Owners were dicks maybe?
    NLRB might have something to say about this once the trump puppets are gone in a few years.


    Miguels244--
    I was kinda making an assumption based on nothing more then a possible guess.
    Now to take that one step back even further...

    Why did the shop Unionize?

    Where the owners "dicks"...maybe.
    Is the definition of "dick" they took home a good deal more money then the guys on the floor?
    Does it make a difference if they were well paid for the jobs they did...or is it that owners just drew more money from the company without getting dirty.

    Anyway...to the question. Why did they unionize.

    Could it be workers wanted better wages?
    Workers wanted better conditions?
    Maybe...

    I'd bet the union offered that and a good amount more.

    But then sometimes companies Do Treat their people very well and the unions try to sway workers into believing they are "entitled to more".

    So why did the shop unionize...I'd say its a mix of the above. But just a guess based on nothing more then my gut as we have no facts...other then shop was around for many many years, they unionized and shortly after closed up.

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  17. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Never heard that one.
    Rules of evidence generally shut that down until sentencing unles proven behavior can go to pattern.
    Piss off a judge that way and you have a long uphill battle.
    see it all the time in Jury Trials. Best advice I ever got from a defense attorney was what you just said, that's how you can tell how strong your case is. He told us he kisses that juries ass all week long, so he likes it when you have an attitude for that 1-2 hours your on the stand.

  18. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Quiring View Post
    Different states have different laws and unless we know the rules cannot comment on that.

    Been through a couple such layoff events.

    One was 60 day notice but stay working and the morale was terrible.

    The other was bad as well as management scheduled a conference call about a project and we prepared for the call only to have hr on the call

    Was escorted from the building but due to regulations requiring 60 day notice was still paid for 60 days.

    In last position the simple flip of a switch could have knocked out cell service for a huge chunk of real estate so risk too much so better to cut losses and pay the exit fee.

    It sounds cold to simply lock the doors without warning but considering the possibilities of real losses by not locking down the lock down was the only option.

    Given the company was sold to another company there likely was lots of legal actions behind the deal specific to how the laid off workers would be treated as well has the folks that were to be offered same positions in new company.

    Unions are often needed but not always.

    The new company may have an environment where union would not be needed and the only way to legally transition the needed and wanted workers would be to fire them.



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
    Same here, some companies escort you out of the door right away.
    Notice perioid depends on how long you have been working, over 8 years at the same company so if I quit I have 1 month notice perioid and if I'm fired by the company its 4 months. Company can choose if they want me to work or not during that notice perioid but the salary for that perioid or severance pay is the same.

  19. #176
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    On my last aerospace job in 1976, I was working at LAX at Rockwell International scheduling technical document preparation on the first B-1 bomber. When Jimmy Carter cancelled the program that summer, the company laid off everyone in the plant. That was something like 11,500 workers. . We were all out the door in less than 2 days. That was as fast as the company could muster us out and hand us our last paycheck.

    This was a union plant and, typical of aerospace at that time, they would just clean house to prevent issues with morale, sabotage and the like.

    For you folks who like to make everything into a racial issue, the plant had 37% minorities (black, Hispanic, Asian, Native Americans, etc.) and they all went out the door at the same time as us honkies. That's what I'd call real diversity.

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  21. #177
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    I say they did the right best to lock the doors and be done with it. It sucks but atleast it was upfront is what it is and that’s it. Besides benefits I dont get the whole union thing. Good on the Union for getting fair pay but it encourages laziness and stifles process improvements especially when hey wait you can’t push that broom it’s Moe’s job

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    Word on the street is that some of the machinists will be rehired to work for the MI gear division.

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    Cool

    Interesting commentary on someone else's business from a lot of half baked perspectives... so let me offer my own half baked perspective.

    My personal experience with unions is nill. However, I was contacted back in the Spring of 1985 when the UAW wanted to come into Texas to "set up shop" in new car dealerships, no pun intended. I reminded them that this is a right to work state and wished them all the good luck with their new expansion goals. So with that, I may not have the soundest of additional comments, however...

    I once owned a company for 14 years. Closed it down for personal health reasons. My products are in 32 states and on 3 different continents. Always ran it as a sole proprietor... and kept it that way. My biggest concern with hiring employees was even with a sound non disclosure / non compete document in place, I faced teaching someone something highly proprietary and thus could potentially teach someone to compete with my business... but I digress.

    Having read this entire thread, I have to ponder the idea that if I were to put myself into the former owners' shoes... wouldn't I have a well trusted legal advisor or legal team? And wouldn't they be well paid to advise me of how best to manage my assets... labor force included or not?

    So, why would I concern myself with the emotional stress and toll of making those workforce decisions solely on my own emotions and financial well being?

    My point is and my money is on the implied fact that the family adhered to legal advice when they shut the doors prior to inking the deal. I could easily find myself on a beach somewhere enjoying the fruits of my families hard work and investments all the while knowing that future generations would not pursue owning my company moving forward.

    It's a no brainer to me, especially knowing that a trusted business ally is going to purchase the physical assets and continue the operation with their own interests at heart. All the while they absolutely knew in advance what talent they needed and did not need. Think about it from the new owners' perspective... Is it legally easier to hire or fire someone, especially if there is an existing collective labor agreement in force?

    In addition, who is to say that this deal is going to be bad or reflect negatively on the workforce long term?

    I say out with the old and in with the new... full steam ahead. You're either with them or you're against them. And either way I'll suggest that both parties involved in the sale of those assets are going to be just fine for some time. Which means that unless the new owners can cut gears and hold world class tolerances themselves... you get the idea.

    Your mileage may vary from the actual stated mileage.

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  26. #180
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    ^^^ When you closed your business.....did you screw your employees ?

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