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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Was he?
    I do not see that in any information.
    Hiring people is the same as giving away trade secrets?
    Bob
    The FBI seems to feel that that is the case.

    I don't speak for the FBI but while I worked in DC and Maryland we had some really awesome analytical chemists from the FBI that were second to none. Very cool able and insightful individuals.

    As to your point the details have not come out... (indeed) So will be very interesting to see specifically what was stolen and what essentially has been passed onto the Chinese and how much of threat to US security and business it really is.

    However there is / are certain principals at stake beyond shallow political "Needs".

    I've been aware of the FBI's taskforce for theft of IP from US businesses since about 2005. So they consider it a major threat to the wellbeing of the USA / business + national security.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________

    Even on US soil not everything can be patented and in some cases it's not rare to have an employee working on sensitive and critical technology just leave a company of their own volition and walk it across the street to you major competitor. Some countries have better mechanisms for prosecuting that and other's don't (for example the UK is very bad at that ~ They just don't "Get it".).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I think we both get that (the pathway for paid for research being essentially "Free" for the Chinese versus what the US tax payer had stumped up for it.) .

    but $1.5 M is not a lot of money for such a lab.
    $1.5 might not be a lot of money over here but in China could probably go a long way. To "build" a lab doesn't usually mean constructing a building but rather furnishing a section of one with benches, desks, research apparatus, and all the other bits.

    What having a lab in China would allow him to do is take data, formulas, etc. from his U.S. funded work and recreate it in China as a starting point for the Chines researchers to continue development while he went back to develop (and steal) more.

    This is IMO the biggest scandal found out yet. Here we have a non-Chinese department head literally vacuuming up all the research done by subordinates and transporting it to China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Was he?
    I do not see that in any information.
    Hiring people is the same as giving away trade secrets? Recruiting people, done every day inside and out our borders.
    If I know someone good in a field and recommend for them a high paying job outside the US I'm a bad guy?
    In that case case color the Brits, Germany, Swiss, and Scandinavia as enemies of ours.
    This is simply politics and vote gathering in a election cycle.
    One sees here that it works.
    Bob
    You added a bit more here. ^^^ :-)

    The rules are the same.

    If the DOD work was classified (at some level) US tax payer paid for it and then specific intellectual property that did not belong to Dr. Lieber was implemented on French soil then the same charges apply.

    The FBI is just trying / grasping at straws to try and push back on whole sale theft of US tech and IP.

    The French don't set up specific programs to steal US IP. The Chinese "Thousand talents Program" is designed specifically to enable that.

    + relentless hacking by the Chinese is very broad scale- and effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    $1.5 might not be a lot of money over here but in China could probably go a long way. To "build" a lab doesn't usually mean constructing a building but rather furnishing a section of one with benches, desks, research apparatus, and all the other bits.

    What having a lab in China would allow him to do is take data, formulas, etc. from his U.S. funded work and recreate it in China as a starting point for the Chines researchers to continue development while he went back to develop (and steal) more.

    This is IMO the biggest scandal found out yet. Here we have a non-Chinese department head literally vacuuming up all the research done by subordinates and transporting it to China.
    I agree.

    Speaking personally there's stuff I've paid for personally over period of time for our R&D in house efforts for our products and systems that I have spent millions of dollars on that I have absolutely no intention of giving away for free. + loss of considerable time and effort.

    I act on the principal IF it can be stolen it WILL be stolen.

    So best not to have anything out there that someone can steal until you launch.

    Showing development work and work in-progress is a very bad idea (at least for us).

    Some stuff we really need to keep as a trade secret rather than Patent something as Patents essentially flag what you are doing and describe perfectly (more or less) new methods and systems that have value.

    Other groups have the ability to knock us off and put things into production faster than we can.

    So we aim to set the standard in a field of application that would be tricky or difficult for others to duplicate. (in most practical cases).

    Nothing worse (-well you know what I mean-) - than being knocked off, but knocked badly before you have to opportunity to formally launch. -That really sucks and that's happened to us a couple of time so by MY mistakes I have had to learn to really zip it on anything new and useful that other's would happily "Pinch".

    Even a 15 second glance at a key document or rendering could totally f*ck your company if stolen.

    You can't un-ring a bell.

    The damage is permanent.

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    But if you don't have patents in the relevant territories, you don't have any comeback if someone comes out with a similar/identical technology. You can't have it both ways.

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    Someone will eventually steal or copy your ideas, tech of manufacturing process.... That is the way it works.
    Get over it and learn to compete.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    But if you don't have patents in the relevant territories, you don't have any comeback if someone comes out with a similar/identical technology. You can't have it both ways.
    We have patents for certain aspects of our tech and we have naturally "trade secrets/ methods and techniques" that we keep in house.

    You have to try and pick what makes sense.

    The most valuable aspect of our granted patents is that at least no one else can claim to have invented what we have + we can show clear "priority". It would really suck to have to take Intel to court to prove that we were doing something first before they later patented essentially the same thing. That takes years to litigate + millions of dollars and in the end a Pyrrhic victory at best.

    The grey area is for Patents that have been filed and have not gone to grant yet (can take several years) or may require different wording of the claims depending on the patent examiners you dealing with in a particular territory.

    So theoretically other companies can read all about what you are working on as it's in the public domain (as published).

    So for us filling patents in China (at the time) would seem like a suicidal move that would accelerate our destruction lol.

    That's why I totally gave up on even thinking about doing business in China.

    I think most of the bitching about there "not being a level playing field " is that US companies that wish to do business in China and require protection in the form IP (utility patents) on Chinese soil obviously arn't getting anywhere with that.

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    There's no point in having national or international laws unless they are enforced.

    If these laws are not enforced then it is essentially "Lawless".

    This is what the FBI and other entities are trying to push back on, to enforce the law so these actual laws can carry some weight.

    I.e. Actual consequences for breaking the law/laws (be they US or international).

    ___________________


    The basic double standard is that a Chinese firm can file patents in the USA to obtain US patents that will be upheld, but a US firm that files patents in China is not afforded any level protection or adherence to an idea of "Law".

    So the US tax payer pays for a system of law and the USPTO (US patent and trade marks office) and a Chinese company can file their unique and new inventions in the USA to go to grant and be afforded various protection courtesy of US law.

    ~ whereas patent fillings for US tech by US companies in China are not afforded such protections.

    Definitely not a two way street nor a reciprocal agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Someone will eventually steal or copy your ideas, tech of manufacturing process.... That is the way it works.
    Get over it and learn to compete.
    Bob
    Absolutely but I'm totally prepared and armed for that and build various designs methods and strategies around that.

    Indeed.

    I don't have anything to "get over".

    Whether we are eventually competitive is another matter entirely but having stuff stolen before one can get off the ground properly would be a major hindrance.

    Again this is what the FBI is pushing back on are practices / theft of tech and IP in early stages of development Being counter to the idea of "Fostering Innovation" in the USA / US soil.

    China makes stuff fast and cheap and on a massive scale. The US tries to Invent / innovate , if companies are not able to benefit from their own innovations and get ripped off by Chinese hackers , then that becomes a problem.

    There's nothing wrong with pushing back on theft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Someone will eventually steal or copy your ideas, tech of manufacturing process.... That is the way it works.
    Get over it and learn to compete.
    Bob
    Yeah but if your product is out there in the market, functional and reasonably priced, the company trying to knock it off has to build a better and/or cheaper version to compete.

    Where is Lotus 1-2-3 or Quattro Pro today?

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    You are the exception, Ox And I don't see you whining and gnashing your teeth about "Made in China ! Stolen by those Commie bastards ! They made a lathe ! That was my idea ! How dare they !"

    I mean, sheee-it. What a bunch of crybabies. If you want to keep a secret, then don't tell anybody.

    Universities deserve scorn if they take money from the DoD or corporations. Whores.
    If you've read much of my shop thread, as being a production shop, you will have seen many instances where China has taken much work from my shop. Without a doubt, I'm crying!


    -------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    If you've read much of my shop thread, as being a production shop, you will have seen many instances where China has taken much work from my shop. Without a doubt, I'm crying!


    -------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Well, it's your own damn fault, isn't it? I bet your toilets have P traps and everything, pretty sure that means you're not serious about business costs...

    [For the sarcasm impaired - ah, forget it]

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    One thing that has always troubled me is companies storing critical design data on "the cloud". The outfits that own the servers swear to protect the data but if a hacker, especially Chinese ones, ever get in there might be billions in confidential data lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    One thing that has always troubled me is companies storing critical design data on "the cloud". The outfits that own the servers swear to protect the data but if a hacker, especially Chinese ones, ever get in there might be billions in confidential data lost.
    I have right hand programmer/ "software architect" actually working from the U.K. for key software development and he kept pushing for transferring updates and new versions of our software via DropBox.

    I always strongly resisted that and insist that he put it on disk and fedex it to me in the USA. (No doubt he thought I was crazy). ~ Waiting a dew days for a major update is not a big deal.

    One year later DropBox was totally hacked.

    Friends I know that work at Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico that work in a similar or related 'Sand pit" to me have often recommended that if you don't want something hacked for critical systems and code/ software NEVER connect the machine to a network.

    So we have followed that advice and we have systems that are connected to the web that are in a sense "sacrificial" and other systems that are never connected to the web or a larger network ~ That's very difficult to achieve with modern "Lazy" / enforced updates via Microsoft etc. In other words don't put sensitive information on computers connected to the Web.

    In some cases the main CAD and FEA has been carried out years ago (so we have most of the engineering answers "out" years ago; that for a lot of conceptual design work we have gone back to Rotring/ isorapidograph pens and old school design / artists markers and old school drawing boards. Other than fractured wrist(s) my illustration skills are pretty good and more fluid than a 'puter in some sense for real conceptual design work . So I have literally thousands of actual drawings in old school plan chests. ~ The satisfying thing about that is we have actual artwork AND paper sitting in a plan chest is really hard to hack from 6000 miles away in China. The "Paper" is not connected to a network nor is it easily hackable. We know who comes to our premises etc. [Not everything can be done that way obviously.].

    With DropBox 68 Million User Emails and Passwords were hacked and leaked.

    I've actually had one bank account of mine hacked by Chinese hackers that managed to remove pretty substantial sums on one visa card. (I've never been to China (only Vietnam 17 years ago.)). My Bank was really slow to catch it (Biggest name in Banking)). Weird that the actual multiple withdrawals was tracked to a specific location in China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    are you in a westernized area since there are urinals?
    They've had urinals all over the country for as long as I've been here. Been to some way out of the way places, too.

    Squatters are for number two Out in the country I prefer them. You don't know where the previous rear end has been, ya know ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    One thing that has always troubled me is companies storing critical design data on "the cloud". The outfits that own the servers swear to protect the data but if a hacker, especially Chinese ones, ever get in there might be billions in confidential data lost.
    And they wouldn't even know about. I.e. that their data had been read, compromised or stolen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    But if you don't have patents in the relevant territories, you don't have any comeback if someone comes out with a similar/identical technology. You can't have it both ways.
    Yes/no.
    Was in a meeting with patent attorneys, and they explained about "trade secrets" and how a Japanese company
    patented some process that a USA corp had been doing (and not patenting) for years earlier.

    Lawyer said if sued, USA corp should produce signed engineering notes, showing when they invented process.
    It would be a fight, but the first inventor (the usa corp that didn't file) should win out.
    Note, they wouldn't win the patent, rather win the suit brought by the Japanese company for infringement.

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  26. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yes/no.
    Was in a meeting with patent attorneys, and they explained about "trade secrets" and how a Japanese company
    patented some process that a USA corp had been doing (and not patenting) for years earlier.

    Lawyer said if sued, USA corp should produce signed engineering notes, showing when they invented process.
    It would be a fight, but the first inventor (the usa corp that didn't file) should win out.
    Note, they wouldn't win the patent, rather win the suit brought by the Japanese company for infringement.
    Couple of camera related cases RED Digital / Jim Jannard had to prosecute an intermediate dealer for hacking and stealing company secrets and passing them onto a German competitor. The damage was already done the "Stealer" had to do jail time for that.

    Second case where SONY stole and reverse engineered very deep coding, processing and compression schemes from RED.

    Jim Jannard had to order a cease and desist and order the cameras that SONY developed to roll out to be destroyed.

    So that was extremely difficult to prosecute and the bain(sp) of Jannard's existence for many years.

    So a notable billionaire that founded Oakley, with a sizable war chest still had serious trouble dealing with SONY and successfully prosecuting for what had been stolen / reverse engineered.

    Problem was that some of tech was trade secret / proprietary But SONY still had to reverse engineer/steal what they could not figure out on their own.

    At least if you file a patent it's easier to prove priority, as signed/ dated engineering drawings can be forged and similar (much weaker).

    Having your own patents means you have a better chance of being able to practice your own inventions (it's not a guarantee.).

    I.e. less chance of being squashed like a bug by a larger corporation.

    The Japanese patent office were really excellent to us / my little ship/ group, didn't cite any prior art , AND even suggested slightly broader wording of the claims (which is very rare, virtually unheard of.) [Patents went to grant very swiftly and they liked the invention(s)] so the JAPANESE examiners were waaaaay more helpful than the US patent office (even though we had to have everything translated into Japanese and back to English several times). US patent office is completely swamped and underfunded and has a dearth of examiners that understand certain areas of tech to a deep level.

    I would really encourage US firms to file in Japan if possible
    .

    But China does not offer it's US counterparts reciprocal protection for anything really. They're trying to change to a culture of "law" but seems that will be a very long and uphill transition for China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    .....
    Having your own patents means you have a better chance of being able to practice your own inventions (it's not a guarantee.).

    I.e. less chance of being squashed like a bug by a larger corporation.
    ......
    Since you have a lot of experience and are not a mega corp I have a question.
    Drawing up, doing the research on previous and filling, revising and actually getting a patent can get pretty pricey and eat a lot of yours and your staff's time and energy.
    Then the cost of defending it court.

    In the early machine vision days my company would try to patent everything, sometimes I'd spend over 50% of my working time with such paperwork and lawyers that never paid back a dime.
    It was frustrating and held me back from sitting down and doing real work and/or developing new things or ideas.

    If you add up all the time, effort and fees spent vs income from products did it turn out a win?

    Trade secrets of course different than patents but it's hard to keep a secret as people move on. No matter what the employment contract states.
    How many machinists get new employment and say "Here is how we did at xxxx"? So many can't wait to say this.
    It is a big enough problem that often you have to tell that "We don't care, we do it this way here".
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Since you have a lot of experience and are not a mega corp I have a question.
    Drawing up, doing the research on previous and filling, revising and actually getting a patent can get pretty pricey and eat a lot of yours and your staff's time and energy.
    Then the cost of defending it court.

    In the early machine vision days my company would try to patent everything, sometimes I'd spend over 50% of my working time with such paperwork and lawyers that never paid back a dime.
    It was frustrating and held me back from sitting down and doing real work and/or developing new things or ideas.

    If you add up all the time, effort and fees spent vs income from products did it turn out a win?

    Trade secrets of course different than patents but it's hard to keep a secret as people move on. No matter what the employment contract states.
    How many machinists get new employment and say "Here is how we did at xxxx"? So many can't wait to say this.
    It is a big enough problem that often you have to tell that "We don't care, we do it this way here".
    Bob
    That's a good question,

    Had I not filed our patents this is who I’d be trying to sue to have the right to practice my own invention. As these are the companies that have tried to file patents against what we have done and have gone “Splat”.

    SONY, U.S Philips Corporation, NEC, Digimarc Corporation, CANON (Kabshiki haisha), SHARP, VREX, Nobuo Kock, Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd. Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, Barco Imaging, Samsung Electronic Co. Ltd. Sulivan, Conversion Works, Real D, Microsoft, Toyota Jidosh Kabushiki Kaisha, Apple Inc, Qualcomm Incorporated, Nintendo, Pixar Animation Studios, LG Electronics, THE BOEING COMPANY, Adobe systems incorporated, Microvision, Leica Geosystems Ag, Fujifilm Corporation, Dreamworks Animation LLC, AMAZON technologies, Handheld Products Inc, Olympus Corporation, Thomson Licensing, FANUC Ltd. Disney Enterprises Inc. Pixar, Seiko Epson Corporation.

    ^^^ This is mainly from the US patent office where US patent examiner have cited our patent(s) against these corporations etc. that have attempted to file new and novel "Technologies" in our specific area / invention(s). [This is a shorter subset than the actual list.]. ~ I have no idea why I have FANUC citation lol ???

    + Many research individuals + research trusts associated with various Universities.

    I did most of the leg work for my patents myself so it was a LOT cheaper than hiring goons to make a complete hash of things luckily I had patent attorneys that would work with me and let me do 90% of the work.

    You can’t go out and buy what we have done and have developed in terms of systems, software and capability.

    We have yet to launch but maybe we will be commercially successful or maybe not ? (timing is the most important factor.).

    FYI SONY tried to file about 8 patents, Apple about the same number… I don’t know about you but having to sue Apple, Amazon, DISNEY (notoriously litigious) Samsung, SONY and the Boeing Corporation and Nintendo and … and … and … That would not be fun.

    Was pretty crucial to file what we had done and spent considerable time anticipating how the invention would be "Subverted" or bested. I.e. we had to make sure we didn't miss any obvious improvements to what we / I had developed. Put in an extra couple of years to make sure we hadn't missed anything and that we actually understood what we had invented (properly) as the invention is not obvious at all.

    My choice to "file" was more defensive than "I'm gonna sell lots of licenses and rake in the cash".

    We'd be pretty screwed if we didn't have some level of protection.

    Right now gigantic "tech monopolies" kinda go very much against the "Little guy" + the Chinese also trying to steal you blind.


    If we didn't have some level of IP I can't imagine what we would be able to do instead ? It would be like stealing candy from a baby.

    "us" being the baby and candy stealers would be the PRC and Sony and Disney and Amazon and Apple …. and ..

    So at least in our case filing patents preemptively helps prevent a hideous amount of legal treachery that would sink anyone's ship.

    __________________________________________________ ___________

    Happy SuperBowl !

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