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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Yeah but if your product is out there in the market, functional and reasonably priced, the company trying to knock it off has to build a better and/or cheaper version to compete.

    Where is Lotus 1-2-3 or Quattro Pro today?

    PDW
    It's inherent that with China's labor costs they can undersell any U.S. manufacturer. If they steal the design all the R&D money the U.S. firm put in is pretty much wasted. And it happens more often than people think.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    It's inherent that with China's labor costs they can undersell any U.S. manufacturer. If they steal the design all the R&D money the U.S. firm put in is pretty much wasted. And it happens more often than people think.
    I have to do real work today lol,

    But I think most people don't see how that has the effect of progressively lowering US wages over here.
    (China's much lower labor costs). + the Chinese are going totally gangbusters with automation also.

    The USA is not a bubble. It's a directly connected "relationship" / equilibrium.

    Interestingly in some areas of China wages are going up and some cities like Shenzhen have become as expensive to live in as any American or European city.

    If we get the opportunity to launch and scale (I assume we will) everything we do has been designed to be "Doable" and operate on US soil. I.e. not be farmed out over seas and still be commercially viable here (USA) + development partners in Europe.

    I've known companies that were very USA based and extremely resistant to outsourcing manufacturing to China (to be commercially viable) but some of their major suppliers (Japanese firms based in Taiwan) their respective divisions were acquired by Chinese firms. Then it becomes a slippery slope. And in some cases a company just "caves in" on that saying it's not viable to "Do it" on US soil. The bottom line manages to kill them in the end. Keep doing things on US soil and die, or outsource to China and Taiwan 'cuz that's what all their competitors have done. [Nothing especially wrong with Taiwan though.].

    Conversely Terry Gou CEO for Foxconn they tried to set up this massive plant in Wisconsin. The original aim was Foxconn wanted their own branded unique products rather than making stuff for Apple and Lenovo and (one of the Japanese game video game consoles.) as they were complaining the profit margins with apple were razor thin. I think their idea was to have US "Ideas" people and technologists in their massive Wisconsin manufactory and ,local deals were made with the governor of Wisconsin with the promise of major local employment and good wages etc. I think much of that has folded and been scaled back now and its just more a R&D facility on US soil. In the case of Foxconn / Terry Gou, he has fingers in many manufacturing "pies" in mainland China, Taiwan and now on US soil (as well as new plants in INDIA).

    Increasing it seems that China is actually becoming more hostile to foreigners and foreign businesses particularly "western businesses" XI Jinping and various arms of the PRC are really amping up the old school communist rhetoric and pressure. Seems Vietnam is becoming the place for what China used to be (their Golden Age) ten or fifteen years ago. I hear very good things about Vietnam (good vibe) for being open for business and reasonably friendly.

    The Chinese younger generation seem a little different and switched on compared to the 'Old guard" but seems xi jinping still needs to keep turning the thumb screws somehow.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


    *

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    I think with such an intermingling of US talent, Chinese capabilities and Taiwanese know-how and other , it's really important to get all this IP sh*t straightened out. China won't play "Ball" ~ One solution I could see would be to extend patent life times beyond 15 or 20 years... If they were extended to 25 to 30 years then that could "c*ck block" China on other territories.

    That would stop Chinese "incursions" but would also strengthen the power of tech monopolies in the USA and elsewhere, which probably wouldn't be a good thing.

    You can't have a patent that runs twenty years for everyone else but runs longer against the "Chinese" lol.

    That would level the playing field but would also totally violate normal legal principals (not that PRC would care lol).

    I.e . a legal double standard singling out a specific country / regime that other countries would sign up to ?

    I wonder if there are any legal precedents during "War time".

    The Chinese are going to steal sh*t no matter what but seem the 'Thousand Talents Program" and Dr. Lieber is one, two or five clicks blatantly over the line.

    _________________________

    * Random musing.

  5. #84
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    It's not just the cheaper labor that gives China a competitive advantage if they have no respect for IP.

    All things being equal, if a US and a Chinese company both set-out to manufacture and sell an identical product developed in the US...since the US company spent the initial capital to develop the IP that resulted in the product they're both producing, the US company still has to pay the cost of that capital investment (whether funded with debt or equity).

    Regardless of how it was funded, if a Chinese patent infringer produces the same product for the same cost structure otherwise, they're going to out-compete the company that developed the tech in the first place.

    Not so much an issue with Tee shirts. But anything that requires/required a decent development budget...

    Very short-sighted of US business to off-shore manufacturing of proprietary wares without some reasonable level of IP reciprocity.

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  7. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumpster_diving View Post
    It's not just the cheaper labor that gives China a competitive advantage if they have no respect for IP.

    All things being equal, if a US and a Chinese company both set-out to manufacture and sell an identical product developed in the US...since the US company spent the initial capital to develop the IP that resulted in the product they're both producing, the US company still has to pay the cost of that capital investment (whether funded with debt or equity).

    Regardless of how it was funded, if a Chinese patent infringer produces the same product for the same cost structure otherwise, they're going to out-compete the company that developed the tech in the first place.

    Not so much an issue with Tee shirts. But anything that requires/required a decent development budget...

    Very short-sighted of US business to off-shore manufacturing of proprietary wares without some reasonable level of IP reciprocity.


    I agree.

    (Never been a fan of feeding the dragon) ~ Very naïve idea that $ = democracy (perhaps Bill Clinton's false assumption , PRC is not like South Korea and Taiwan.).

    Just to add insult to injury ~ In China if you are a Chinese company the PRC pays for free shipping / heavily subsidizes shipping to anywhere in the world. Ever wondered how that that $2 nick-nack that travelled seven thousand miles and still only cost $2 ?

    If you are a Foreign entity or individual that wants to ship 3 or 4 T shirts to Canada it cost hundreds of dollars to ship from China ~ total racket. If you are a Chinese company said "novelty " or "Fan" T shirt cost nothing to ship.

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    It shouldn't be assumed that all IP originates in the USA. Huawei, for instance invests $15billion per year in R&D. That isn't small change...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    It shouldn't be assumed that all IP originates in the USA. Huawei, for instance invests $15billion per year in R&D. That isn't small change...
    They call it "R&D" but that account probably includes money
    for bribes & binoculars too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    It shouldn't be assumed that all IP originates in the USA. Huawei, for instance invests $15billion per year in R&D. That isn't small change...
    Isn't this company the really bad guys?
    My president told me so. They can not be trusted.
    They will give a back door into the entire 5G world to others.
    The CIA, NSA, Homeland and others need to own this because they are legit and not corruptible.
    Our public company executives and government agencies are not like those in China.
    We are the friggen USA, we have higher moral standards than any other.
    Bob

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  13. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    It's inherent that with China's labor costs they can undersell any U.S. manufacturer. If they steal the design all the R&D money the U.S. firm put in is pretty much wasted. And it happens more often than people think.
    Bah. US companies don't do R&D anymore. That went out with the nineties. Maybe earlier.

    Speaking of R&D, all the "proprietary information" developed at government expense belongs to the people of the US. It's public domain. That was part of the original NASA charter. You've already been fleeced by your own corporate oligarchy.

    Now if you really wanted to address the costs issue, the $650,000 in bribes Motion Guru had to pay to put up a building, that might be a profitable place to start ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    + the Chinese are going totally gangbusters with automation also.
    Get outta dodge. There's no reason to. "Automation" costs more than labor and it's way less flexible. That's a stupid US "prognosticators" meme.

    If you are a Foreign entity or individual that wants to ship 3 or 4 T shirts to Canada it cost hundreds of dollars to ship from China ~ total racket. If you are a Chinese company said "novelty " or "Fan" T shirt cost nothing to ship.
    Please don't spread lies. I ship stuff to friends all the time. It's generally ten to fifteen bucks for EMS (three day air). No CD's or fireworks allowed though This is nonsense. Worse than nonsense, where does this shit come from ? The usual place ?

    Increasing it seems that China is actually becoming more hostile to foreigners and foreign businesses particularly "western businesses" XI Jinping and various arms of the PRC are really amping up the old school communist rhetoric and pressure.
    What a crock. Do they still print the Reader's Digest or something ? Our taxes have gone down over the past few years. Recently China has been encouraging imports. A new trend is little stores selling just imports, I can finally get salted butter. Did you get a booth and try to sell some stuff ?

    opportunities.jpg

    It's true, the Wild West days are mostly over, to find a village that wants to sell grandma's burial plot for ten bucks is a lot harder now. It's a different environment than twenty years ago. But I see lots of Italian and French, some Germans, more eastern Europeans and even Africans (China does not like dark skin, it's cultural thing) here now, but not so many Amurricans. You guys are letting your Trumpidity overcome your brains.

    All this crap about "China this ! China that !" is simple dumbness. If people really want to do well, they look at the situation and find solutions, instead of this religious nonsense.

    The truth is, the US hasn't done any R&D in twenty years. Since you went all Pareto Principle, you haven't done shit and you think a black rectangle with round corners is "property". You're going to have to change the way you look at things if you don't want to become like England.

    The Chinese younger generation seem a little different and switched on compared to the 'Old guard" but seems xi jinping still needs to keep turning the thumb screws somehow.
    How the hell would you know ? How many "younger generation" Chinese do you interact with ? I live in the middle of 22 million (give or take a few), way more young ones than you will ever see in your life*, and do not see this. There is nothing wrong with Mr Xi, he is doing fine, the biggest direction his tenure has taken has been to squeeze down on corruption. Which most people, except for Macao, approve of.

    You could try a little of thta medicine yourselves, ya know ... although most of Congress would be in prison if you did.

    Many of these comments are sheer nonsense. China is not a bogeyman or evil empire ruled by tyrants - people who believe that have their heads up their ass. It is certainly different but not in the way I read here. Plus every single thing you guys snivel about was standard operating procedure for the US, so, hey, clean hands, ya know ?

    I guess it's natural to blame other people/countries when your own is so fucked up - the good days of the US are behind us. The US is going downhill, I do not think anyone here would dispute that. But what you do about it, well .... you can blame other people or you can get your shit together. Your choice.


    *Speaking of young ones, holy crepes, spent the entire summer in the northwest US, didn't get wood once. I saw one girl with a nice body but she was Canadian. In Shanghai you live with a hardon. It's amazing what happens when surrounded by females with waists.

  14. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Bah. US companies don't do R&D anymore. That went out with the nineties. Maybe earlier.

    Speaking of R&D, all the "proprietary information" developed at government expense belongs to the people of the US. It's public domain. That was part of the original NASA charter. You've already been fleeced by your own corporate oligarchy.

    Now if you really wanted to address the costs issue, the $650,000 in bribes Motion Guru had to pay to put up a building, that might be a profitable place to start ...


    Get outta dodge. There's no reason to. "Automation" costs more than labor and it's way less flexible. That's a stupid US "prognosticators" meme.


    Please don't spread lies. I ship stuff to friends all the time. It's generally ten to fifteen bucks for EMS (three day air). No CD's or fireworks allowed though This is nonsense. Worse than nonsense, where does this shit come from ? The usual place ?


    What a crock. Do they still print the Reader's Digest or something ? Our taxes have gone down over the past few years. Recently China has been encouraging imports. A new trend is little stores selling just imports, I can finally get salted butter. Did you get a booth and try to sell some stuff ?

    opportunities.jpg

    It's true, the Wild West days are mostly over, to find a village that wants to sell grandma's burial plot for ten bucks is a lot harder now. It's a different environment than twenty years ago. But I see lots of Italian and French, some Germans, more eastern Europeans and even Africans (China does not like dark skin, it's cultural thing) here now, but not so many Amurricans. You guys are letting your Trumpidity overcome your brains.

    All this crap about "China this ! China that !" is simple dumbness. If people really want to do well, they look at the situation and find solutions, instead of this religious nonsense.

    The truth is, the US hasn't done any R&D in twenty years. Since you went all Pareto Principle, you haven't done shit and you think a black rectangle with round corners is "property". You're going to have to change the way you look at things if you don't want to become like England.


    How the hell would you know ? How many "younger generation" Chinese do you interact with ? I live in the middle of 22 million (give or take a few), way more young ones than you will ever see in your life*, and do not see this. There is nothing wrong with Mr Xi, he is doing fine, the biggest direction his tenure has taken has been to squeeze down on corruption. Which most people, except for Macao, approve of.

    You could try a little of thta medicine yourselves, ya know ... although most of Congress would be in prison if you did.

    Many of these comments are sheer nonsense. China is not a bogeyman or evil empire ruled by tyrants - people who believe that have their heads up their ass. It is certainly different but not in the way I read here. Plus every single thing you guys snivel about was standard operating procedure for the US, so, hey, clean hands, ya know ?

    I guess it's natural to blame other people/countries when your own is so fucked up - the good days of the US are behind us. The US is going downhill, I do not think anyone here would dispute that. But what you do about it, well .... you can blame other people or you can get your shit together. Your choice.


    *Speaking of young ones, holy crepes, spent the entire summer in the northwest US, didn't get wood once. I saw one girl with a nice body but she was Canadian. In Shanghai you live with a hardon. It's amazing what happens when surrounded by females with waists.
    Nice try EG,

    But, no.

    10 out of 10 for effort though !

    Hope the "China thing" is still working out for you ten years from now.

  15. #91
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    There is an important point here. If a company manufactures a U.S. patented product they can legally sell it in the U.S. even if the manufacturing is outsourced. They don't need a Chinese patent because any Chinese patented product that violates U.S. patents can be blocked from import.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Nice try EG,

    But, no.
    At least I'm not full of shit like you. Have you ever actually shipped anything from China ? Hundreds of dollars ? What are you, stupid ? Who believes this crap ?

    Loser.

  17. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I have to do real work today lol,
    snip

    Conversely Terry Gou CEO for Foxconn they tried to set up this massive plant in Wisconsin. The original aim was Foxconn wanted their own branded unique products rather than making stuff for Apple and Lenovo and (one of the Japanese game video game consoles.) as they were complaining the profit margins with apple were razor thin. I think their idea was to have US "Ideas" people and technologists in their massive Wisconsin manufactory and ,local deals were made with the governor of Wisconsin with the promise of major local employment and good wages etc. I think much of that has folded and been scaled back now and its just more a R&D facility on US soil. In the case of Foxconn / Terry Gou, he has fingers in many manufacturing "pies" in mainland China, Taiwan and now on US soil (as well as new plants in INDIA).

    snip

    *
    It's funny how making anything for a GIANT corp like Apple, or Sony, or what have you, the only money is in volume. IE it costs the consumer $1000 or so to "upgrade" to the next Iphone model, but the people making the cases and batteries, assembly, are getting literally a few cents (compared to $1k retail for one unit) on each part they make.

    I worked for a competitor of foxconn and it is a brutal world for the little guys there. Sure, get you a gravy MBA job with a corner office and be set for life, but the vendors, factory workers... good luck!


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