More reasons for metals pricing turmoil... - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 60 of 60
  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    North Carolina
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    5

    Default

    My family's business is mostly in rebar. 8 trucks a month (8 person business 3 of which is my Mom, Dad and I) pricing has gone up since Dec, it's not $4-4,500 more a truck load or a extra 36,000 a month or $432,000 in material cost a year. Needed wall ties, price when up. I get on the phone and ask why...no shit the response make my blood boil "tariffs on metal" They never went in to effect.. time for a new supplier.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,678
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    474
    Likes (Received)
    1897

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScubaSteve65 View Post
    ...I get on the phone and ask why...no shit the response make my blood boil "tariffs on metal" They never went in to effect.. time for a new supplier.
    Unless you are buying mill direct, your supplier is just passing on his increases.

    Prices were going up before the tariffs were announced as you noted. Pretty hard to determine what portion of the increases are due to tariffs or otherwise. ALL the suppliers are blaming tariffs right now.

    Sounds like you use enough to go mill direct- I used to buy a million pounds a year of 4340/EN30B, we went mill direct and bid out our material once a year. That locked in the price for that year, I would give them a delivery schedule of how much I wanted each month and the sizes. Next year, we'd have the mill reps back in and do it again.

    If you have a good enough picture of what you use, and have the space to inventory some material, it can save a lot of money.

  3. Likes wheelieking71 liked this post
  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1814
    Likes (Received)
    5462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScubaSteve65 View Post
    My family's business is mostly in rebar. 8 trucks a month (8 person business 3 of which is my Mom, Dad and I) pricing has gone up since Dec, it's not $4-4,500 more a truck load or a extra 36,000 a month or $432,000 in material cost a year. Needed wall ties, price when up. I get on the phone and ask why...no shit the response make my blood boil "tariffs on metal" They never went in to effect.. time for a new supplier.
    Let us know how you do with re-sourcing the material. If all the pricing is the same, it'll be a good data point.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    2,599
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3052
    Likes (Received)
    479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    trend past decade is trying other countries besides China as its been expected that Chinese wages will go up and currency will get closer to fair levels. Worldwide corporations been planning this for a long time
    .
    so Vietnam, Thailand, Honduras, Turkey, South Africa, Brazil...... many items will be coming from other countries. a lot of manufacturing machines can be parked anywhere and plug in electric and compressed air and they run with minor adjustments. not unusual to pack up machines ship thousands of miles and plug them in somewhere else using a few experts to help out in the new country. this been done many times and will if anything increase in the future
    I never knew it may be that easy to move. I mean like in materials and all which go into making the materials for example. I can see where it might not be that easy with more special metals maybe considering rare earth ingredients and proximity of source to completion.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Tennessee
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    110
    Likes (Received)
    17

    Default

    I have a question maybe some of you that know more about this stuff can answer for me. I am a small shop and mostly machine parts for other small businesses. One of my customers buys quite a bit of machined steel parts from China but has me do fill in work when they are waiting on a shipment from China. Will they be able to get around the new Tariffs because they are a small business or have to pay up?

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    10,224
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2656

    Default

    i have seen many factories setup of breaking ground to full production in less than 5 years. believe what you want. manufacturing dont take long to move just about anywhere as long as near a Sea port or railroad tracks. i have even seen a mini steel mill setup in Auborn, NY cause mayor went Japan and agreed to tax breaks if they setup the mini mill. mini mill by the way is fairly massive making a 20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot high pile of day of steel is common. multinational companies bring in experts and setup factory and train local people on running equipment. dont matter what country they do same in China or USA. if locals dont understand anything they train a 2nd and a 3rd and a 4th time til they understand. i personally have been trained on running newly setup factories that i had zero experience running the equipment. and it took about 3 to 5 years before we were running factories as well if not better that the factories run by the people who trained us.
    .
    other thing taking only a millisecond to figure out. say you buy $1000. of steel the steel was bought by the supplier for $500. as its normal to make 100% profit. on the $500. if there is a 10% tariff its $50. so the $1000. of steel its $1050. or increase of 5% not 10%
    .
    the tariff aint on the final price its the price the importer or metal distributor pays. even if price goes up if they charge price increase on final price they are making a 100% profit on the tariff too. many items people buy extra or start hoarding. dont matter what it is. even toilet paper people will buy extra and create shortages if they think price is going up in the next few months. takes months for factories to increase production to match the demand but they will if price stays high enough

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    11,278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5431
    Likes (Received)
    3408

    Default

    I've not noticed any major change on price here yet, I guess last bar of 3" 316 (US made) was up maybe $0.50/lb but that happens shipment to shipment and our dollar is weak, though I was a little disappointed the last Aluminium round extruded bar I got said vietnam on it, I thought we made this stuff in Canada... I'll be even more disappointed if it machines better than the Canadian/USA stuff... I look forward to digging into it in a couple weeks.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    972
    Likes (Received)
    5399

    Default

    My stainless costs went up around 20% this year due to the tariffs. And it made zero difference where the stainless was made. I got about 75% US made material in 2018, just randomly due to what size and shape I ordered. One size I ordered- 1" x 1 1/2"- was made in France. Pretty much all the other stuff I got, flat bar was all US made. Round bar, hard to tell, no inkjet printing, but lots of was US.
    So- increased price on US made material due to tariffs.
    Increased price on imported material due to tariffs.

    no increase in my fixed contract for work.

    I eat the difference.

    So much winning, I can hardly stand it.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1814
    Likes (Received)
    5462

    Default

    Let's see what happens next. The new tariffs have taken effect ($200B) but it seems mostly on finished items. So household appliances and similar will be going up, but you can bet there'll be further pressure on raw materials costs.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,678
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    474
    Likes (Received)
    1897

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    ...So- increased price on US made material due to tariffs.
    Increased price on imported material due to tariffs.
    Well, that's what they are supposed to do. Raise the cost of imports so domestic producers can charge more.

    My stainless tubing went from ~1.25/ft to ~1.50/ft, I passed it on to the customer.

    Aluminum seems to have stabilized at about $2.40, which is where it was in June, it peaked at about $2.75 mid-July or so.

    My DOM steel went down this month from earlier this year, I will have to dig up the invoices to get the prices I paid and the dates.

    One thing my supplier said was that Korea had already met their quote for this year and wouldn't be exporting any more steel to the US until January.

  12. Likes Ox liked this post
  13. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    1,745
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    183
    Likes (Received)
    463

    Default

    Tariffs are nothing but a big tax increase that will come out of your pocket. Between the tariffs, rising interest rates, and the federal deficit we are poisoning our economy. Enjoy the next year and get everything paid off because this one is going to be a doozy.

  14. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    ga,usa
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    152
    Likes (Received)
    57

    Default

    Tariffs are just another tax but I agree with The Donald wanting equal treatment. It's time for the US to stop wanting everyone to love them - its not going to work. When his term ends I have no doubt his successor, Republican or Democrat will reverse everything that has worked.

    I do still do not understand why European steel is cheaper than American.

  15. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    972
    Likes (Received)
    5399

    Default

    Like me, many domestic producers cannot charge more.
    In my case, I sign fixed price contracts for delivery in 1, or 2, or even 3 years from date of signing.

    But there are other types of manufacturers that cant just raise prices monthly- like, say, Ford.

    Trump metals tariffs will cost Ford $1 billion in profits, CEO says | Reuters

  16. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    25,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5710
    Likes (Received)
    8122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Like me, many domestic producers cannot charge more.
    In my case, I sign fixed price contracts for delivery in 1, or 2, or even 3 years from date of signing.

    But there are other types of manufacturers that cant just raise prices monthly- like, say, Ford.

    Trump metals tariffs will cost Ford $1 billion in profits, CEO says | Reuters

    Anyone who has been buying raw materials since before 2004 has no-one to blame but theirselves for accepting a blanket order with no provisions for material surcharges at the very least.


    --------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  17. Likes jancollc, cnctoolcat liked this post
  18. #55
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Country
    DENMARK
    Posts
    3,463
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4033
    Likes (Received)
    12627

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    I do still do not understand why European steel is cheaper than American.
    I read one PM member write that because when times were good US manufacturers didn't invest in better machines or modernizing their plants. Don't know if it is true but certainly plausible.

    List of countries by steel production - Wikipedia

    Top 1 Largest Steel Producing Companies in The World

  19. Likes converterking liked this post
  20. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1814
    Likes (Received)
    5462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I read one PM member write that because when times were good US manufacturers didn't invest in better machines or modernizing their plants. Don't know if it is true but certainly plausible.

    List of countries by steel production - Wikipedia

    Top 1 Largest Steel Producing Companies in The World
    It may be that the added burden (a legitimate one) of environmental controls required by US law does add enough cost to make American steel more expensive. I would think that European producers have essentially the same costs added, but there may be more explicit tax or financial supports given by their respective governments than the US.

    Even in China there has (finally) been more emphasis on reducing pollution, so we can expect cost increases in their products due to the added expense. But I certainly don't have a breakdown of all the costs, and if it's available on the Web I doubt it's fully accurate.
    Last edited by Milland; 09-28-2018 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Fixed incorrect word

  21. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    972
    Likes (Received)
    5399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Anyone who has been buying raw materials since before 2004 has no-one to blame but theirselves for accepting a blanket order with no provisions for material surcharges at the very least.


    --------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    my market segment (usually fixed price government contracts, but also similar contracts with private companies), simply does not allow provisions for material surcharges. You just dont get the job if you demand that. I routinely sign 100 page contracts, including providing proof of 1 or 2 million dollars worth of liability insurance, along with workers comp, and auto insurance, and sign for a fixed price, 2 or more years in advance.
    If I didnt do that, I wouldnt get the job.
    I have been doing this since about 1978.
    Its simply the way this kind of work goes.
    I am working on a project right now for the real estate division of a very famous billionaire- his minions send you the contract, and you either sign it, or someone else will.

    thats just the reality for the last 40 years in this type of work- (architectural metalwork for large projects- stadiums, light rail stations, office buildings, libraries, schools, and high end residential condo buildings)

    But my niche market is only one of several that I know of that have similar fixed price contracts that just do not allow for material increases.

  22. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    972
    Likes (Received)
    5399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    It may be that the added burden (a legitimate one) of environmental controls required by US law does add enough cost to make American steel more expensive. I would think that European producers have essentially the same costs added, but there may be more explicit tax or financial supports given by their respective governments than the US.

    Even in China there has (finally) been more emphasis on reducing pollution, so we can expect cost increases in their products to to the added expense. But I certainly don't have a breakdown of all the costs, and if it's available on the Web I doubt it's fully accurate.

    I am pretty sure that most European mills would have Stricter pollution requirements, along with higher labor costs, taxes, and benefits.
    I know that in many other industries where they eat our lunch, they do it while paying more, not less.
    For instance, in fabrication machinery (plate rolls, angle rolls, shears, ironworkers) Euro factories with higher costs still outsell and, feature for feature, price competitively with US machines- hence their domination of most market segments. If you are making wind generator towers, the odds are very high you will be buying Italian CNC plate rolls to do it.

    In terms of steel mill investment, Nucor, which is the largest producer in the USA these days, with around a third of the domestic production, has been consistently building and updating mills with modern cnc continuous casting EAF mills all along.
    And the foreign owned mills in the USA, about another third of our capacity, are pretty modern- the Russians, Germans, Indians, and even the Chinese have been buying or building steel mills in the USA for several decades now, and updating them.
    Its mostly the old line US companies that are still running antique steelmaking equipment. They do update, but by and large, the oldest mills out there are probably the 5 USS mills.

    I think its more about corporate structures, and expected return on investment profit ratios. The US companies expect to make a higher margin.

    Remember that the reason Ikea built a factory in the USA is the labor costs, including benefits, are 1/2 of the costs in Scandinavia, and, in many cases, cheaper than eastern europe. We are the low cost labor country, more and more. The chinese are even catching up, and I foresee a time in my lifetime when chinese wages may pass US wages.

  23. Likes digger doug, Ox liked this post
  24. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    West Unity, Ohio
    Posts
    25,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5710
    Likes (Received)
    8122

    Default

    The other option would be to buy stock in steel @ Chicago - provided that is traded there?
    I know grain elevators that are not on a N/G line will buy L/P stock in the summer low and if the commodity goes up when they need refilled - they sell the stock that should have also went up a similar amount.

    On the other hand, I guess that any job that you landed in 2004 for 2007 delivery - you likely made out well on?

    Likewise in 2009....


    BTW - I didn't read the Ford link, but that must be for steel that Ford themselves will buy to produce body parts?
    Or maybe some of the Tier1's have a better deal than they offer T2's?

    I don't know how set in stone it is, but Tier1 wanted me to quote a job with no surcharge allowances for material price fluctuations, and no allowance if their FOB destination changed from nearby to far away, among other things. I'm not hungry enough to bet the farm on those type contracts. I survived 2004. I'm not dumb enough to agree to that - post 2004. At least craps is easier than working for a living - if it's only a gamble of things outside of your control.


    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    11,278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5431
    Likes (Received)
    3408

    Default

    I noticed a bit of an increase today with some new 316 bar that came in. For a few years I had paid $150/ft for 3.5"dia in canadian loonies, then it went down to $135/ft for about the last 2 years, today it was $170/ft. From roughly $4.15/lb a few weeks ago to $5.25/lb. One thing I heard and I had kinda noticed lately while looking at the racks is that some stuff was out of stock and has been harder/longer to get, demand seems to have gone up for quite a few materials/shapes so that's likely playing with pricing too. Either way, I don't sweat it, $2-3 more a part when they're over $100 a piece doesn't make me lose any sleep. I'm also happy its USA material.

  26. Likes cnctoolcat liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •