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  1. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    ... To say I'm not nervous at all would be a lie!
    .
    Robots and vision systems are the doom of all mankind.
    When Sky-net and the revolution evolves out of your shops robots ... how will you feel then?
    You should be nervous. The end of the world and you are participating. We will all be slaves and it will be your fault because you did not want to put up with human operators.
    Bob

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    Reviving this for memory's sake............

    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    robots. lots of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    I dunno, with the luck he's been having he'd be where the robot rebellion starts.
    Wheelie, you better watch your back!

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    When the Robot Overlords Fully Ascend we won't be slaves, we won't be here at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Robots and vision systems are the doom of all mankind.
    When Sky-net and the revolution evolves out of your shops robots ... how will you feel then?
    You should be nervous. The end of the world and you are participating. We will all be slaves and it will be your fault because you did not want to put up with human operators.
    Bob

    Hmmm, I think that we went down this path 82 yrs ago tonight....

    Orson Welles’s “War of the Worlds” Is Broadcast - HISTORY


    ---------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'ayh post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I'll chime back in shortly and let you guys know how it runs. To say I'm not nervous at all would be a lie!
    I'm excited as all get out! Yet, very nervous.

    One of the ways to insure proper 2nd OP part load is a simple probing cycle. With Brothers being as fast as they are, there isn't even a "real" time penalty.
    But, this brings me to MY achilles: I know absolutely nothing about macros. And, as much as I like the yamazen apps dude, I do not want to be dependent on anybody!
    So, in the short-term anyways, any time I benefit from the bot running parts for me? Will surely get sucked up by me learning how to make the bot do its thing.

    I'm a bit of a slow learner with tech related stuff. So, I'm staring down (up?) a real steep/long climb right now.
    I guess "Pin it to Win it!" Braaaaap!

    I didn't know that you had commited to the idea yet.


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    When in doubt, Throttle out!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I didn't know that you had commited to the idea yet.


    ----------

    When in doubt, Throttle out!
    Ox
    Post#1304 Didn't have much choice

    A) farm it out (already subbing a bunch of shit out)
    B) Lose it (not really an option)
    C) Kill all the profit margins moving back to an industrial space, hiring management to handle the two shifts I'm not there, and covering all the scrap/mishaps.
    Not really an option
    D) Go for it

    This doesn't solve all my issues. Only about 1/4 of them actually...................... (if it even works)

    If it indeed does work? It will not be long at all, and there will be a second spindle parked right next to it!

    Robotic Manufacturing Automation Cell - Multiple Part Workholding - YouTube

    My rig will only have one spindle for now.
    This get-up will cover what the big-fat-haas does now. The numbers are saying, in 24hrs, it will edge out what the BFH is doing in 15, by a small margin.
    So, it should be able to at least match it.

    The real benefits will come in to play when I can park another spindle next to it. (and when I am sleeping! I hope! )

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    Well - that's an interesting cell concept fer sure, and if able to tend two like that (enough demand) to amortize the costs, should be a win.
    But if that part shown has enough volume to justify that cell, I am not seeing why it isn't coming out of extruded stock and ran on a 2win turret lathe?

    Hopefully it is a bogus part and just showing application, but ????


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    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well - that's an interesting cell concept fer sure, and if able to tend two like that (enough demand) to amortize the costs, should be a win.
    But if that part shown has enough volume to justify that cell, I am not seeing why it isn't coming out of extruded stock and ran on a 2win turret lathe?

    Hopefully it is a bogus part and just showing application, but ????


    ------------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
    I imagine there are a dozen better ways to make those but I bet that is in the top 5 for the most expensive way to do it.

    It has to be just to show us that it can.

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    The nice thing is we will do all initial running of the part on our floor before shipping it over. This will include a 50 piece run that has to run flawlessly before moving it. Robotics always shows your weak points. Over time, the process will get more robust. Also, the cycle time should be very consistent. Machine and FLEX2 cell shipped and should be at our place late next week. First we will confirm machine process and then add the robot for loading.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Hmmm, I think that we went down this path 82 yrs ago tonight....

    Orson Welles’s “War of the Worlds” Is Broadcast - HISTORY


    ---------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'ayh post!
    Scary thing is how many people believed it, and that hasn't changed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    .,..
    Hopefully it is a bogus part and just showing application, but ????
    Not a bogus part and very, very high volume.
    This place aggressively biting at another big very long time supplier of the same 40-50 miles away.
    I do not sell to either but watch with interest.
    This a mostly smaller or mid run shop going after the big production world.
    I think it pretty slick but this is a low cost or margin item but do say that they be on to something.
    Would a twin actually outproduce this cell on this part?

    Automation is going to run all. Now the robots can load parts, they can now see and some can read.
    Some can do part prints and make the G-code.
    Not long until to the point that they make themselves. We should be in fear of the ghost in the machine.....or maybe not.

    Above shown is bin picking with all easy, Bin picking absolutely, positivity sucks big time. An easy way would be a great advance.
    Thing here is that a human has touch and feel grab that part and orienting it. Robots not so much now.
    A human does not look in the bin. You reach in and grab one.
    Robots are now great programed machine auto loaders.
    Difference from hard automaton is the ability to handle parts or other shapes. Even that may mean end of arm tooling.
    Note the above blowing out the last stuck chip. One small problem a human sees, robot?
    Is this or the next part bad? One out of one few hundred bad? That will not fly.
    In the auto world this means recall of all cars shipped. Now talking big money.

    Bob
    (all this and a way so do love robots and machine vision systems)

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    No offense to anyone,but Im sick of hearing all the robot takeover drivel.......just another machine ,that does a bit more of the human task,and thereby saves money...but only if its reliable enough not to tie up the CNC centre it picks for.Every application Ive seen ,human versatility is traded off for cost saving ,needing a substantial modification of the process to get reliability ......simpler the task ,more savings from a robot pick and place.Intelligent vision just another piece of the jigsaw.........My scary vision of robot takeover is here right now with un elected government misusing the all seeing /all knowing ability of a system to intimidate ,harass,and crush ordinary people .....who dont have the supreme power of access to the states surveillance network,or use of the states unlimited funds to take legal action against those who raise an objection..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    I imagine there are a dozen better ways to make those but I bet that is in the top 5 for the most expensive way to do it.
    You sure about that? You have suffered from the same problem as I (reliable labor). I suffer from the same solution as you (do it all myself).
    My real problem has become: the problem has overridden the solution. I'm tapped. I'm tired. I'm close to burnt out.

    Now, I get that isn't exactly what you were getting at with your post (better process?).
    But, labor definitely becomes a BIG factor on long-running production (hence this reply). And, reliable labor? Well, we both know that song/dance!
    And, one thing that video doesn't show: Brothers are sickeningly fast. And, not just from a rapids, and tool-change perspective.
    Process, when you add it all up, it is kind of mind bending really. This was really driven home for me when my first Brother increased my throughput on one part 100%.
    I would bet that is not their first iteration of that. I bet there are 8 parts on that fixture for a reason. Driven by how long it takes the bot to tend the other spindle.
    And, I bet that process is actually quite cost effective. That get up is worth about $500k.
    I can't think of anything in that range that would even come remotely close if you factor labor over time in (including different stock).

    If you pay three operators $50k/yr for one year, you are square. The "FLEX" portion of that is about $150k. Everything after that 1 year point is basically free labor!
    Evaluate your risk wisely is all I can say

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  23. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    No offense to anyone,but Im sick of hearing all the robot takeover drivel.......just another machine ,that does a bit more of the human task,and thereby saves money...but only if its reliable enough not to tie up the CNC centre it picks for.Every application Ive seen ,human versatility is traded off for cost saving ,needing a substantial modification of the process to get reliability ......simpler the task ,more savings from a robot pick and place.Intelligent vision just another piece of the jigsaw.........My scary vision of robot takeover is here right now with un elected government misusing the all seeing /all knowing ability of a system to intimidate ,harass,and crush ordinary people .....who dont have the supreme power of access to the states surveillance network,or use of the states unlimited funds to take legal action against those who raise an objection..
    What have cncs done to the manual machinist world?
    Some of us may still like cranking handles.
    Now, computers, robots and AI.
    I am gonna kiss any government into or any plan here goodbye, That is just paranoid. Do not live it that world....... it will drive you crazy with no way out,
    Bob

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What have cncs done to the manual machinist world?
    Some of us may still like cranking handles.
    Now, computers, robots and AI.
    I am gonna kiss any government into or any plan here goodbye, That is just paranoid. Do not live it that world....... it will drive you crazy with no way out,
    Bob

    .
    Right. Everybody is like: "your phone is spying on you!". I'm over here like: "so fucking what! What have I got to hide?!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well - that's an interesting cell concept fer sure, and if able to tend two like that (enough demand) to amortize the costs, should be a win.
    But if that part shown has enough volume to justify that cell, I am not seeing why it isn't coming out of extruded stock and ran on a 2win turret lathe?

    Hopefully it is a bogus part and just showing application, but ????


    ------------------

    I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
    I believe it is a forging. When we started working with the shop, they had a small army of HAAS VMC's. Now a not so small army of Brother R450 pallet machines. Over 30 of them. The robot cell is the third iteration for them. If you add the robot to the pallet machines, your load time drops to the 3 second pallet change time. I would expect that to be the fourth iteration.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    You sure about that? You have suffered from the same problem as I (reliable labor). I suffer from the same solution as you (do it all myself).
    My real problem has become: the problem has overridden the solution. I'm tapped. I'm tired. I'm close to burnt out.

    Now, I get that isn't exactly what you were getting at with your post (better process?).
    But, labor definitely becomes a BIG factor on long-running production (hence this reply). And, reliable labor? Well, we both know that song/dance!
    And, one thing that video doesn't show: Brothers are sickeningly fast. And, not just from a rapids, and tool-change perspective.
    Process, when you add it all up, it is kind of mind bending really. This was really driven home for me when my first Brother increased my throughput on one part 100%.
    I would bet that is not their first iteration of that. I bet there are 8 parts on that fixture for a reason. Driven by how long it takes the bot to tend the other spindle.
    And, I bet that process is actually quite cost effective. That get up is worth about $500k.
    I can't think of anything in that range that would even come remotely close if you factor labor over time in (including different stock).

    If you pay three operators $50k/yr for one year, you are square. The "FLEX" portion of that is about $150k. Everything after that 1 year point is basically free labor!
    Evaluate your risk wisely is all I can say
    The labor problem is huge, I cringe each time I hear them talk about bringing manufacturing back to the good ol USA as there not that many folks with the abilities nor the inclination to learn. Your work, or the way you do it is unlike mine in the respect that mine does have the money in it to pay the operators but I was still unable to find some to do what was required. Watching the robot in that video was interesting and I get that it could do that forever which is cool but there are many other ways to do it and make perhaps 3 times the amount of parts in a day. I couldn't get a real good look at the parts and perhaps there are reasons they have to be done that way, as mentioned above they could be forgings or what ever their reasonings were. I am certainly NOT gods gift to machining but over the years I have helped streamline production of a lot of products.
    I had a friend that was called upon for some interesting things from time to time like making the machine that puts the wrapper on the chunky candy bar, he and I worked on that for quite a while before it worked, he and I did the early work on Balls can tops when they wanted to save millions of pounds of aluminum by making the tops on beer and soda cans smaller than the can.
    I have never done any work with robots, I've seen a few work but making the fixtures that streamline the operations and get a given fixture or set of tooling to make complete parts of up to six operations on one machine has been where I shine. Many times I have helped shops taake a job they are running on 3 machines and get 3 machines making complete parts.

    However you are right, the operator is a kay problem and I fear that is getting worse by the second. If a process can be streamlined then taught to an operator or a robot it could make many more parts in a day. I see often in shops and here on PM folks having problems putting mutiple parts in a vise and keeping them consistant and in some cases even in the vise period then I go out to the shop and run a machine with 3 biloscs running 24 or 48 parts at a time 5 operations making complete parts. One has been making clutch perches complete, 5 operations, 14 pcs at a time in 3 bilocks since 02.
    The process is where I shine, it interests me, I am not the best I am certain but I have helped quite a few folks double or tripple their output on the machinery they already have. Some have added robot arme to load and flip parts but I have never been any part of that, thought about it and am not opposed in any way other than I am not interested in learning anything much more about machining or training operators that don't really want to learn, I want to learn to catch fish, practise wearing out motorcycles and see if I can get a small jet boat from here to the Pacific ocean and back while catching fish.

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  28. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    I believe it is a forging. When we started working with the shop, they had a small army of HAAS VMC's. Now a not so small army of Brother R450 pallet machines. Over 30 of them. The robot cell is the third iteration for them. If you add the robot to the pallet machines, your load time drops to the 3 second pallet change time. I would expect that to be the fourth iteration.

    Andy
    And Kitamura HMCs. Which they are more than happy to tell you about how they were the least profitable way to process their work.

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    Context is everything in analysis of something like this. (Which most of you seem to accept....)

    Also, path dependency - it would be very rare that a (non-fraudulent) shop started out of the blue with this level of automation. As noted above the folks in the video have apparently tried various things and have strong experience about what will and will not work.

    I do recall the owner of a firm that bought a giant DMG FMS system told me it was a huge win for them (about 2008.) Why? Because they could load it up during the normal work week, leave Thu night (4x10 outfit), come back Mon morning -> parts. Lots of parts. Large (1 meter pallets) high value parts. Either zero or very light staffing over the weekend. And apparently even this place found it waaay easier to hire competent people to work 4x10 mon-thu than to staff at night or over the weekend. (I think that particular installation may later have become infamous for how hard it was to keep running....)

    I also recall an automated press brake demo one year, where the sales guy pointed out "yes, your floor staff are faster than the robot. for 1 part or 10 parts or maybe 2 hours worth of parts. but over an entire 8 or 10 hour shift?...."

    Part of how CNC machines have displaced more and more manual machines is the structural change in job prep. The part is drawn in CAD to start with. Can be programmed in CAM quite fast for simple parts. Conversational controls have gotten better. And so the minimum number of parts required to "justify" using CNC has come way down - to often 1.

    Expect to see a similar thing in these kinds of robotics - there will fits and starts and more iterations of the cobot debacle, but eventually base working practices will improve and it will be easier to use things like robot loaders for shorter and shorter runs (of at least some parts.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    The extra $600 a week wasfederal, so everyone in every USA state got it.

    I know, but to re-iterate, that ran out end of July.... So... no more for people without/not working for now, it's a state level issue....?


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