Need advice have a delimma

Outlaw320 · Jan 22, 2013

Just want to say thanks for any advice in advance.

Here's my problem, I bought a o.d grinding shop last August, while everything was going through I had a hard time finding a building well I found one that was in the back of another business. it was a mess but had a half loading dock and 3 phase. And the I asked the owner if it was zoned for commercial he said yes!! So I asked again your sure this is zoned m1 or light manfacturing? Again he said yes. So trusting him like an idiot I move in took about 2 weeks of just clean up and fixing the roof windows ceiling and installing new 3 phase panel and running all the wires which I paid someone to do. I'm in this about $12,000 not counting rent I've paid so far.

Well as soon as I move equipment in get them hooked up and running neihbors start to complain and have a 24"x24" Polaroid of the machines sitting on semi and turn it into city. He assures me everything is fine and they are just nosey, then informs me not to use my front door to use his and walk through his shop. So more time goes on I keep getting harassed by neihbors. I tell him I need to move a lathe in I bought so I can make industrial crankshafts on my whole goal from the beginning he says no way that will cause to much gripe from the neihbors and also informs me that when I get parts to walk them through his shop which is a b#%#%#. Last week I had a guy working for me and another guy showed up to fix heater, owner comes back yelling again that I have to many people coming in and out and that will raise red flags. So at this point idk what to do because I have alot of work coming can't hook lathe up or move crankshaft grinder in.

My family has never sued anyone and so I just wasn't raised that way but what is your guys opinion? I mean 12,000 would really help me out plus cost of renting forklift, semi machine down time ect. Oh then today fire Marshall stopped and told me no way can you have a shop back here. I can't find another building to rent so I'm looking at trying to get a business loan and buy a shop or land and put a building up making sure it's zoned COMMERCIAL!!!! But that raises other questions which type of building pole, block or steel framing I live in central ohio.

And if you havnt already figured it out by now he isn't zoned properly found that out a month ago. But it's like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel getting big contracts but also feeling a 1000 miles apart. Sorry it's so long I'm just lost and any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Ryan

LKeithR · Jan 23, 2013

Sounds like a case of disappearing paragraphs...

Perry Harrington · Jan 23, 2013

Unfortunately, most rental/lease contracts specifically state that it is your responsibility to ensure the location is zoned appropriately and to get any necessary permits. I feel your plight, but you need to review your contract carefully. If it's a handshake deal, perhaps you have a lot more leeway. It usually costs very little to have an attorney hear your complaint, then a few hundred more to have a clerk type some keystrokes and them swipe a pen.

I've been to court over lease agreements, lost, now paying a judgement for a place I couldn't occupy, but was considered responsible to pay for when it wasn't occupied.

Outlaw320 · Jan 23, 2013

LKeithR said:
Sounds like a case of disappearing paragraphs...

Sorry Keith I'm a machinist not a English major. Very frustrated and looking for advice sorry I didn't take the time to break it down into correct paragraph form.

Thank you Perry ill be sure to look at the contract.

S_W_Bausch · Jan 23, 2013

Trust, but verify.

And get any claims or promises in writing, don't fall into that "I don't want to insult them" silliness.

They either agree to put their claims and promises in writing, or you walk.

You'll be walking anyway, it seems.

Sorry about that mess of yours, I know of a few like that. A buddy bought a building, the seller says "oh yeah, hooking up to sewer and water won't be a problem at all". Buddy wanted it in writing, and his daddy says "You do that and you're insulting the seller".

Guess how that turned out?

Seller gets what he wants (money), my buddy gets a big shock when he determines the hook up is 500 feet way, on the other side of the road.

S_W_Bausch · Jan 23, 2013

Outlaw320 said:
Just want to say thanks for any advice in advance.

Here's my problem, I bought a o.d grinding shop last August, while everything was going through I had a hard time finding a building. I found one that was in the back of another business. it was a mess but had a half loading dock and 3 phase. I asked the owner if it was zoned for commercial he said yes!!

So I asked again your sure this is zoned m1 or light manfacturing? Again he said yes. So trusting him like an idiot I move in took about 2 weeks of just clean up and fixing the roof windows ceiling and installing new 3 phase panel and running all the wires which I paid someone to do. I'm in this about $12,000 not counting rent I've paid so far.

I move equipment in, get them hooked up and running neihbors start to complain and have a 24"x24" Polaroid of the machines sitting on semi and turn it into city. Owner assures me everything is fine and they are just nosey, then informs me not to use my front door to use his and walk through his shop.

Time goes on, I keep getting harassed by neighbors . I tell him I need to move a lathe in I bought so I can make industrial crankshafts on my whole goal from the beginning he says no way that will cause to much gripe from the neihbors and also informs me that when I get parts to walk them through his shop which is a b#%#%#.

Last week I had a guy working for me and another guy showed up to fix heater, owner comes back yelling again that I have to many people coming in and out and that will raise red flags. So at this point idk what to do because I have alot of work coming can't hook lathe up or move crankshaft grinder in and I've dumped 12,000 into this place.

My family has never sued anyone and so I just wasn't raised that way but what is your guys opinion? I mean 12,000 would really help me out plus cost of renting forklift, semi machine down time ect. Oh then today fire Marshall stopped and told me no way can you have a shop back here.

I can't find another building to rent so I'm looking at trying to get a business loan and buy a shop or land and put a building up making sure it's zoned COMMERCIAL!!!!

But that raises other questions which type of building pole, block or steel framing I live in central ohio. And if you havnt already figured it out by now he isn't zoned properly found that out a month ago. But it's like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel getting big contracts but also feeling a 1000 miles apart. Sorry it's so long I'm just lost and any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Ryan

You do know that most cities have GIS (geographic information systems) in place that you can access from your computer. Some access is 24-7, other systems aren't as accessible.

With GIS, you (or the building inspector, or code enforcement, or your dumbass landlord), can determine the details of a property while sitting at home, wearing a bathrobe.

You can use GIS to sniff out who owns a property, what the zoning is, determine if the taxes are up to date, etc.

Here is the Indianapolis GIS system, or one implementation of it:

City of Indianapolis: Indy Site Finder Economic Development Tool

If you weren't so secretive about your location, I'd look up the GIS links for your city.

Until you determine the actual zoning, it's implications, etc. you cannot determine how to deal with the neighbors. Are they concerned about parking? Did the current owner just alienate everyone? (sounds like that is the case) Is there any chance of coming to an agreement? (won't know until you talk to them). What seems to be the sticking points? (you won't know until to talk to the city, talk to the neighbors, talk to your lawyer, etc.

The city may not like the interior finish (perhaps not fire-rated drywall?) Or it may simply be parking considerations.

You are big on emotions, but short on details. Without details, what sort of advice do you want? We are assuming you are a man wanting a remedy, not a woman wanting sympathy.

Good Luck,
Steve

Outlaw320 · Jan 23, 2013

Yes I was short on details been a long night lol, but I'm looking for a remedy should I just cut my losses and move on or try legal actions? Just pisses me off acts like he did me a favor.

What's a better next step really don't want to try renting again so buy an existing building "which there's not a whole lot anymore" or buy land and put up a building? Which brings me to the question from guys with experience which type of building is better in the long run and holds a higher resale value, pole barn, block, steel frame or combination of block and pole.

Thanks for the tip on the gis it is zoned commercial warehouse with an "asterisk" in residential area grandfathered

Gordon B. Clarke · Jan 23, 2013

My advice would be to get out of the whole thing as fast as possible. Chances are that taking legal action, even if you win, will cost you more than you've invested so far plus the time it'll take you getting involved. Even if you won you'd never get along with the jerk anyway.

Sensible people learn from their mistakes and you've learned what could be a very valuable lesson.

Like the sign in a shop says: IN GOD WE TRUST, ALL OTHERS PAY CASH.

Gordon

S_W_Bausch · Jan 23, 2013

it is zoned commercial warehouse with an "asterisk" in residential area grandfathered

If you can figure out what zoning aspects you absolutely need, and what aspects you can do without, you may be able to finesse the zoning, seek a waiver (perhaps a temporary waiver, for a few years) and have a graceful failure (you will need to move in a few years) instead of a catastrophic failure (you need to move, yesterday).

If you insist on 24-7 production, yes, you need to move.

If you can agree to Mon to Friday, no earlier than 7 am, no later than 6 pm, with limited parking needs, no trucks parked overnite, idling their engines, etc. you may be able to work out a truce with the neighbors.

You are living in a rustbelt, and you can't find a cheap building? WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED??

Good Luck,
Steve

Scruffy887 · Jan 23, 2013

Your landlord ripped you off and lied to you. Prob get away with is because he did not use a gun. No need to think about being nice to him. Talk to a Lawyer. Remember that a lawyer wants billable hours so be carefull there also. State bar association can refer one to you for a flat rate first visit, usually not a lot of money.
Sounds like the neighbors have a beef with this place that started before your time. Good luck with that. May be worth it to talk to them directly and see what their concerns are. If it were me I would use the property as the lease describes and refer all complaints to the landlord. I would hold off on any more capital improvements though.

metlmunchr · Jan 23, 2013

Stuff like this is dependent on the particular state, so you'll need to talk to a lawyer who's familiar with Ohio's commercial leasing laws.

Here in NC, a court case about a dozen years ago established that anyone leasing commercial property is responsible for any verbal statements made to the prospective tenant regarding fitness for purpose and a range of other issues. IOW, they can't blow you a line of bullshit to close the deal and then later claim it was just a sales pitch like a used car salesman might make. The plaintiff in that case recovered about $900,000 in actual costs, lost business, and punitive damages, so its not just a case of how many dollars you're out of pocket thats at issue.

In your case, where the building owner obviously knew the zoning status of his building and yet lied to you when asked directly, you could have a case under fraud statutes even if there's no case law in Ohio regarding truth in commercial leasing per se. Regardless of any wording in a lease, it would be rare to find a jurisdiction where getting money from someone by deceit is considered a legal act.

Don't feel guilty about pursuing this in court. There's plenty of flim flam lawsuits filed every day, but there are far more cases there because they deserve to be litigated. Assuming the information you've presented here is accurate, this building owner is one of those people who's begging for a suit.

CatMan · Jan 23, 2013

I never got past "renting the building" and "paid $12K for these improvements myself" .........

Heavey Metal · Jan 23, 2013

#1 Look for a new place.

#2 keep running where you are until you actually get a cease and desist order.

A simple p&z ticket can be appealed and give you some time to recoup some of your loss.

Here after the cease and desist you will still have 90 days after the last appeal prior to eviction.

Stop paying rent asap.

Try and get as much of the electric gear out that you can.

Scruffy887 · Jan 23, 2013

CatMan
Not uncommon to pay out of pocket for things special to your requirements.

Heavey Metal
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But capital improvements made to property are almost always made part of the building and cannot be taken when moving. I would still strip out what I could.

To the OP
All good stuff hear and no disrespect intended but we only know what we see here. All free legal advice posted is worth every penny you paid for it.

WILLEO6709 · Jan 23, 2013

I don't know if your neighbors are reasonable or not..... but an unmentioned tactic may be go talk to them.... no secrets. Make sure they know you are trying to do things right, are doing nothing more illegal than trying to work for a living and was unaware of any past zoning issues on site. If all else fails work them to let you run for 3-4 months while you build a new place outside the city limits to move to. spring is comin, tell em you'll be outa there by june.

Outlaw320 · Jan 23, 2013

Thanks for all the advice, I'm gonna move out the one grinder I use daily ASAP to reduce down time as much as possible then work on getting other equipment moved. I am located at 460 fairmont avenue mount vernon, ohio 43050. Once again I apologize for my first post I'm not looking for sympathy I'm looking to get shit done right so I don't have to deal with this again. Thanks again and keep them coming

kustomizingkid · Jan 23, 2013

You can't find a building in Ohio? Damn...

Outlaw320 · Jan 23, 2013

Not around Knox county, most of the old buildings were tore down, turned into store fronts or being occupied. The ones you do find are $2,000 a month rent and need renovated. We have an old ppg plant for .25€ a sq ft it's 750,000 sq ft, minimum you can rent is 10,000 sq ft and I think the ceiling height in that section is 100+ ft hello heat bill!! Lol

hobbyman · Jan 23, 2013

I am thinking of one unpleasant result of a friend of a friend. The guy had a falling out with landlord and got evicted. The fine print in the agreement said that anything bolted to the floor became an "improvement' to the building. The tenant was forsced to leave some of his machinery that was bolted down.

S_W_Bausch · Jan 23, 2013

I am located at ... mount vernon, ohio 43050.

Okay, that's the Mansfield Ohio craigslist.

You are most likely checking CL for real estate. Not always a lot; I searched "office and commercial" for "phase" (as in "three phase") and found:

2293ft² - Commercial Property for Sale (Galion, Ohio)

You don't need 175,000 feet, but ... OWNER FINANCING / BEST DEAL IN OHIO (ASHLAND, OHIO)

Seems like it's "only" $100,000 (I like spending other people's money, I'm good at it

$100000 / 175000ft² - INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY FOR SALE/ PRICE JUST REDUCED/OWNER FINANCING AVAIL (ASHLAND OH)

(Ever thought of becoming a landlord?)

Others include:

$1300 / 4800ft² - 4800SF OFFICE/WAREHOUSE W/3 PHASE ELECTRIC ( EAST COLUMBUS)

This one would need further inquiry, the listing is a bit cluttered and confusing:
7000ft² - shop warehouse OFFICE, (ORIENT)

And

$1300 / 4800ft² - 4800SF OFFICE/WAREHOUSE W/3 PHASE ELECTRIC ( EAST COLUMBUS)

The search link is:
mansfield office & commercial classifieds "phase" - craigslist

I think you have already found a GIS portal for your area. If not, here ya go:

http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Data.aspx?ParcelID=66-09940.000

Using the GIS search (for specific zoning), it appears "small shops (machine, toll & die)" is 370. Of course, a heavier duty zoning could be used for a machine shop.

The results (you could drive by and take a look) are:

http://www.knoxcountyauditor.org/Re...cXQYubfrmxFczaOTvKdWzsVdEn7k6wrI3IU73IGBLOJ5M

Need advice have a delimma

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