Number of Quality Control personnel vs Machinists - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    See, I never said we have a "special person" employed just to hover. It doesn't matter. I have apparently said something that people can now gang together and protest....yay!

    Our system works, it costs nothing, and I am a firm believe that two heads are better than one. Good for you guys that hire "the best" machinists on the planet that never ever make a mistake. Fact is it works, our customers like what we do, our parts always pass inspection, but apparently it doesn't pass PM spec. K....

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    I think there can be some importance to a supervisor or QC guy going around and checking things a few times a day, lots of shops hiring people with zero experience/training because there are nearly none coming out of trade school anymore. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, so long as the end product is good and the customer is happy with the price/quality, who cares how it gets done. I have a part time operator for some CNC stuff and I do the tool changes and inspections as it goes on through the day, if a part comes out looking weird I get asked to come check it out, that's that.

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    12 machinists (20 machines) in our shop and we have one QC inspector. We should have at least another because part of his job is checking the castings we get from the foundries and the imported parts from China and India on top of the parts that we make in the shop. Plus there is a lot of paper work when he has to do NCR reports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huleo View Post
    When you write a book, please let me know so we can all be like you.
    Cheeky bugger

    I have written a book but changed it into a CD and then put it on my website.

    Screw thread types

    In fact if you look at my website you'll find I have just as much general thread information on it than information on my products.

    Btw before I started my own place I was QC manager at several companies for 25 years and have given talks at seminars on ISO 9000. What's your achievements?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    I think there can be some importance to a supervisor or QC guy going around and checking things a few times a day, lots of shops hiring people with zero experience/training because there are nearly none coming out of trade school anymore. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, so long as the end product is good and the customer is happy with the price/quality, who cares how it gets done. I have a part time operator for some CNC stuff and I do the tool changes and inspections as it goes on through the day, if a part comes out looking weird I get asked to come check it out, that's that.
    Is the interest in practical machining/manufacturing trades in North America really as low as your post suggests?

    In most other countries I've seen it's almost the exact opposite. In Europe a machinist is not only a well paid job but also a respected one. You'll find it nigh on impossible over here to get a job without having been to technical school or college.

    The best I could find without looking hard to show what I mean.
    Education and training in the EU - facts and figures - Statistics Explained

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Is the interest in practical machining/manufacturing trades in North America really as low as your post suggests?

    In most other countries I've seen it's almost the exact opposite. In Europe a machinist is not only a well paid job but also a respected one. You'll find it nigh on impossible over here to get a job without having been to technical school or college.

    The best I could find without looking hard to show what I mean.
    Education and training in the EU - facts and figures - Statistics Explained
    Trades are usually not once mentioned when in high school.

    Shops have been hiring off the street for 20+yrs, mostly cnc minions, but it was already well known when I was taking the course, and in some provinces I hear they bring some from other 2nd-3rd world countries. Some other trades do it too, even for berry picking, while we got millions of lazy people on welfare who just don't want to work...

    We were 20 when I took the course about 18yrs ago, there was another 5-6 at another trade school in the same province of about 1mil population, that was it. A few (about half) were put there by unemployment/welfare and had no intention of sticking to it, some flat out "didn't have it"...
    I think maybe 4-5 out of that stuck to it for a career so far. That school shop got shut down a few years ago, downsized and moved to rural middle nowhere. Last I heard from a guy that had just taken it about 6yrs ago, they were 6 in the course, he worked in it for about a year and decided to go into something else, like most do. There was talks a few years ago of shutting the program down completely and leaving it up to the shops to do what they gotta do since that's pretty much how it is now, but I guess some shops put enough pressure that it didn't get shut down, yet...
    Apprenticeship program was a joke too.
    Some provinces might do a bit better, or worse...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Trades are usually not once mentioned when in high school.

    Shops have been hiring off the street for 20+yrs, mostly cnc minions, but it was already well known when I was taking the course, and in some provinces I hear they bring some from other 2nd-3rd world countries. Some other trades do it too, even for berry picking, while we got millions of lazy people on welfare who just don't want to work...

    We were 20 when I took the course about 18yrs ago, there was another 5-6 at another trade school in the same province of about 1mil population, that was it. A few (about half) were put there by unemployment/welfare and had no intention of sticking to it, some flat out "didn't have it"...
    I think maybe 4-5 out of that stuck to it for a career so far. That school shop got shut down a few years ago, downsized and moved to rural middle nowhere. Last I heard from a guy that had just taken it about 6yrs ago, they were 6 in the course, he worked in it for about a year and decided to go into something else, like most do. There was talks a few years ago of shutting the program down completely and leaving it up to the shops to do what they gotta do since that's pretty much how it is now, but I guess some shops put enough pressure that it didn't get shut down, yet...
    Apprenticeship program was a joke too.
    Some provinces might do a bit better, or worse...
    It's not too long ago our government turned even more focus on getting more interested in learning practical trades again. The manufacturing industry was crying out for more "hands". There's also the big advantage here that you don't pay for technical schools and colleges. One way or another you are paid to study.

    Here, and in just about every country I can think of in Europe, I can't imagine any shop or company employing someone in off the street to work as a machinist. It's more or less mandatory that you have experience from a trade education.

    Although university gets mentioned most it is also technical schools and colleges.

    The country where you get paid to be a student

    YouTube

    The economics behind this way of thinking is that the better paid the job people do the more they end up paying in tax and in the end up "repaying" what they were "given".

    Of course we have some (surprisingly few) that work hard at avoiding having to work but they are so few that it's better to accept that than spoil things for the vast majority that do want to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huleo View Post
    See, I never said we have a "special person" employed just to hover. It doesn't matter. I have apparently said something that people can now gang together and protest....yay!

    Our system works, it costs nothing, and I am a firm believe that two heads are better than one. Good for you guys that hire "the best" machinists on the planet that never ever make a mistake. Fact is it works, our customers like what we do, our parts always pass inspection, but apparently it doesn't pass PM spec. K....
    I'm not sure the intent of others is as you've reacted to. If I may, I'd like to drop out some sound bytes to see what bounces back from everyone, including you. I'm happy to find this thread because it touches on something I'm wrestling with myself: When do we call for a 2nd Person Check (e.g. a "first piece call") or not? Everything needs to be inspected, not everything requires two people to do so. "First Piece" checks need to happen, but do they always require two people?

    Because, of course, Quality Inspectors are typically limited resources.

    Competing forces at work:
    1) What you alluded to Huleo, that sometimes people make mistakes so a second head mitigates that. Customers need to trust our work and ability to deliver.
    2) The need to minimize how often multiple people are deployed to "check stuff" when those checks might be reasonably performed by a single person who's following proven process and procedures. That's proven Process and Procedure. Planned and well thought out, not people word-of-mouthing and waving about good intentions.

    An example relative to "but sometimes people just make mistakes". Sure, I agree with that, and will be more true if protocols are sloppy. In my experience: Shop where no one, Machinists or Inspectors, were writing down their Inspection measurements on the blueprints next to the dimension being checked.

    This MAXIMIZES . . . the environment was CONDUCIVE to . . . people making mistakes.

    When a problem occurred, first answer was something like "Guess we need to bang on the Inspector for missing this, followed by more inspections needed, followed by let's look at the Process (overall).

    So I suggested something that kept things simple instead of more complex and down-stream passing:

    If you are a Machinist checking a feature completion, you are to WRITE DOWN your measurement next to the DIM stated on the blueprint. Then LOOK at what the requirement statement is versus your measurement. Everything looking normal? Then initial and date the router.

    If you area an Inspector inspecting, you are to WRITE DOWN your measurement next to the DIM stated on the blueprint. LOOK at the two, everything look normal? Then initial and date the router.

    This METHOD fixed maybe 85% to 90% + of all factors that might cause a human to "make a mistake" regardless of why. From simple distraction, to the fallibility of memory, mistakes made when reading an analog dial indicator, etc. The environment is NOT conducive to making mistakes. It MINIMIZES mistakes, and optimizes catching errors, when they might happen, right when they occur without the need for a second person.

    Short Version: It's been my experience that too often people default to adding more inspectors and inspections because it's a more convenient or easy answer, when in fact the actual root cause could be any number of other things: Training, Discipline, Health or Mental condition, an upstream process issue fed a problem downstream to that position where it was caught, etc.

    I'm not arguing with you, per se. I'm communicating in good faith. I've heard what you've said.

    I saw your statement regarding "See, I never said we have a "special person" employed just to hover".

    That catches my interest as it might be helpful to me if I understood what that means exactly. Do you have Machinists checking each other's work? How do you discriminate between things that require a 2-person check versus 1-person is proven as OK?

    Not trying to score points on the Forum, or for/against anyone. I'm mashing this back and forth myself to try and identify an evaluation method for where I'm at.

    Thanks for your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I disagree with Gordon on many things.
    A book or long desertion on the net of his views and experience would be much welcomed.
    No doubt, a desertion by Gordo here or on the net at large would be much welcomed.

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    Qt Gordon:[The best reason for having any QC is to avoid stupid mistakes being repeated. Corrective action is very important. What went wrong and why?]
    Exactly...so a very important job..

    and in the big shops and many small shops if the error was costly management wants to know "what did you/somebody do so this might not happen again.
    Put a note on the print. ordered an new gauge,changed the process, wrote a crew sheet, put up a sign. bought a new machine, bought new/different cutters, put Charley on a job he could not mess up, or the like.

    Yes the QC guy is not management so does nit make the rules but often recommends them because he/she is in a high respect position.

    Quality control and inspection are a burden the a company would like reduced..Shop average skill level makes more or less needed.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 09-07-2019 at 06:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    No doubt, a desertion by Gordo here or on the net at large would be much welcomed.
    Is this sarcastic or real in this old thread.
    Can we consider or even think Gordo sane or caring about the world in any shape or form,
    He is the bad guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaub View Post
    Just curious how many Quality people you guys have vs how many guys are making parts.

    We have about 25 guys making parts during the day,2-3 robots loading mills at night, and gobs of live tool lathes and swiss machines, with 2 guys trying to check everything.

    It is regularly a bottle neck and I'm just curious how far off the mark we are. I know it depends a lot on what work you're doing. Well we do a little of everything, with an increasing stake in Aerospace and Defense contracts, all the while working on ISO certification. I know we need at least one more guy but I even question if that is enough.

    Again, I'm just curious what others are doing and other opinions.

    Thanks in advance.
    This is based on my experience as QC manager for 25 years before starting my own company.

    How many needed for inspection depends entirely on what is being made, for who and by who. It's been a while since I was in a company where there were inspectors going around inspecting parts. If the initial inspection required (fx first piece inspection) required equipment not available on hand for the machinist then it'd be done by someone else.

    Very few smallish shops here have anyone doing "just inspection" as those making the parts know what they are doing and most larger companies do have some that inspect but that either because the parts are very expensive, very tight tolerances or a customer requirement.

    It's the same with receiving products. The shops and companies that have a "Receiving Inspection" should use time and money looking for reliable suppliers rather than "the cheapest".

    Even the words "Quality Control" isn't about inspecting. It's about controlling what is being made to meet all specification economically and rationally. Japanese (German and Swiss) products have for years had a good reputation for quality products. This isn't done by having swarms of inspectors going from machine to machine and operation to operation.

    I'm not saying it isn't possible but I've never personally met a machinist here that hasn't spent at least a few months at a technical school or college to learn the basics. Sending machinists to courses and seminars (with pay) to update experience is also common.

    Anyone employing a machinist here will start of with "What experience do you have?". There is as good as always a signed contract for machinists and the first up to 3 months are generally regarded as a trial period. Employment can be terminated within that trial period and with no problem for the employer if the employee can't do what they were hired to do.

    Yeps, Denmark is surprisingly capitalistic in many ways

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    Even the words "Quality Control" isn't about inspecting. It's about controlling what is being made to meet all specification economically and rationally. Japanese (German and Swiss) products have for years had a good reputation for quality products. This isn't done by having swarms of inspectors going from machine to machine and operation to operation.
    "Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality"- W. Edwards Deming

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  19. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Is this sarcastic or real in this old thread.
    Can we consider or even think Gordo sane or caring about the world in any shape or form,
    He is the bad guy.
    just a barely mildly amusing play on 'desertion' being used when likely "dissertation" was meant


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