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  1. #21
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    Word is they made a mistake when they pushed the order to build these for inventory. The dealers don't see.verybhappy about the price cut.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    The dealers don't see.verybhappy about the price cut.
    Of course not, How would you like to be trying to explain this to a customer that spent $40K more last week?!?! If it hadnt have been for that Haas VF3YT/50 60 HP whipping up on that Genos at CM a while back I would be the PE that signed off on two of the Okumas at this price and getting a bad rep.......

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post

    The one big thing to keep in mind is Okuma is Big Plus. That's a whole new problem since you have a shop full of Haas. Okuma will not warranty spindles that had regular cat 40 holders in it. It's not so much the investment of buying new holders, it's trying to make sure a big plus doesn't get popped in a Haas or a regular cat 40 don't get popped in the Okuma. Somehow we managed to get two Doosans in with Big-Plus. This totally pissed me off, Here we have probably 2500 Bilz cat 40 tool heat shrink holders and another 1500 of miscellaneous cat 40 holders yet I was constantly bottlenecking because I had to order a tool that we already had 100 of.

    You can run standard CAT 40 tooling in a Doosan Big Plus spindle. Same for Doosan CAT 50. Won't hurt a thing and won't void warranty.

  6. #24
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    You can run standard CAT 40 tooling in a Doosan Big Plus spindle. Same for Doosan CAT 50. Won't hurt a thing and won't void warranty.
    It's a warranty issue with Okuma. Jeremy and I were having a debate about IF it could cause problems and he finally just flat out said if I put the two machines in at CM and they run standard tools, Okuma will void the warranty.

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    We have another 560 coming in a week or two. I need to figure out where to put it.

  8. #26
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    The warranty thing is pretty stupid if true. (Not doubting you that they said that...)

    The whole "standard CAT tool in a big-plus spindle" issue came up a lot when I was selling tooling. The only danger is that if you run some standard tools, it leaves a gap where a chip COULD stick to the gage line. Then, IF a big-plus tool came in after, the chip would be smashed between the holder & spindle face.

    I thought that was the whole point of the air-blast at tool-changes...

    That being said, the 560 is one sweet machine... I understand maybe not being able to justify the price difference, but man are they nice machines to use...

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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    On OKUMA website: Act fast—limited availability.
    I wonder what new is coming in that they are trying to clear the current stock.
    That's kinda my "Vibe" too...

    My hunch is that maybe it's something to do with a new control or switching in one of their newer designs of control that normally does not live on the Genos.

    If that is the case some 'peeps" will be pissed off they didn't wait to buy the newer machine that had the new control. But at such low base prices I don't think many will complain.

    ^^^^ Pure speculation / not a leak and not anything that I got from anyone working at Okuma.

    Just a sort of common industry pattern...

    Maybe they unify all lines on a more advanced new control (at least for mills) but use new (yet to be rolled out) GENOS lines as a test bed/ new guinie(sp) pig before putting it on the multimillion dollar machines.

    ~ More / new software and on board graphics capability / collision simulation etc. maybe ? ~ Higher bandwidth in general.

    Pure guess.

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    I'd be surprised if Okuma was rolling out a new control. The P300 is only 6 years old? That is young in terms of Okuma's control iterations. Heck, I believe even Fanuc rolls out newer control updates/iterations more frequently that Okuma... (That's not a bad thing - IMHO Okuma has the best control on the market, hands down...)

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I'd be surprised if Okuma was rolling out a new control. The P300 is only 6 years old? That is young in terms of Okuma's control iterations. Heck, I believe even Fanuc rolls out newer control updates/iterations more frequently that Okuma... (That's not a bad thing - IMHO Okuma has the best control on the market, hands down...)
    I agree,

    but meyaaaaahhh ~ You're a highly professional and experienced machinist,

    New markets and product perception still has a "Gravitational " pull on things , (whether that's a good thing or a BAD thing :-) .

    DMG MORI their newer efforts (control wise front side.),

    MAZAK Smooth X - somewhat "Over designed' but the bandwidth for multiple sim- axes is really up there.

    Heidenhain again excellent for multiple simultaneously controlled axes + on control 3d simulation.

    Hell even FANUC with HMI (Human machine interface )…

    Makino their on top of Fanuc layers are good and then they did the "Athena" thing.

    I think the newer ergonomics and case for the new non-genos Okuma's looks very good (front side).

    I think it kinda depends whether Okuma sees the need to grab the buying potential of newer or younger companies ?

    I.e. target less experienced people … ?


    I think it would be more than just a partial update of hidden mechatronics.

    Highly speculative (of course).

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    Considering that the OSP 300 is clunky, ugly, and honestly pretty poorly supported; I could see some incentive to make a change.

    I really like my Genos M560, but every time it comes up I feel compelled to share that I hate the controller with a passion. After working for Mazak, then DMG MORI, it just feels SO incredibly dated and impotent.

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    Also, just an FYI to folks coming from Haas; adding rotaries to the Okuma can be an expensive proposition. I bought my machine with a 4th axis, and the intention of switching out to a 4th/5th down the road. I thought I could just add a 5th drive and swap the rotary table for a trunion. If the salesman knew better, he must have kept it to himself.

    When I was ready to upgrade, I found out that putting in a new 4th/5th would cost almost as much as a new machine. Turns out they have to yank out single station drives and replace them with doubles, and the drives have to be factory matched to the third party rotary; so it gets expensive FAST.

    Decided to buy a DMU50 instead of the M460-5AX for designated 5 axis work, and haven't looked back at Okuma. The Genos M560 is still a beast for all the 3 axis work though. I'd consider another if it didn't have that damn OSP controller.

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  17. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Also, just an FYI to folks coming from Haas; adding rotaries to the Okuma can be an expensive proposition. I bought my machine with a 4th axis, and the intention of switching out to a 4th/5th down the road. I thought I could just add a 5th drive and swap the rotary table for a trunion. If the salesman knew better, he must have kept it to himself.

    When I was ready to upgrade, I found out that putting in a new 4th/5th would cost almost as much as a new machine. Turns out they have to yank out single station drives and replace them with doubles, and the drives have to be factory matched to the third party rotary; so it gets expensive FAST.

    Decided to buy a DMU50 instead of the M460-5AX for designated 5 axis work, and haven't looked back at Okuma. The Genos M560 is still a beast for all the 3 axis work though. I'd consider another if it didn't have that damn OSP controller.
    Aye,

    My local Okuma reps at the time steered me away from 5 axis trunnion on M560V just for lack of Z clearance / work envelope. later they had risers as an option for the column.

    Did you get a 3rd gen DMU ? (if you don't mind me asking ?).

    I believe the M-460V 5 ax dedicated trunnion is also made by a 3rd party in Taiwan (very good company that specializes in precision rotaries for big 5 axis machines.),

    Was slightly bizarre to learn that the M-460V 5ax does not have direct read scales linear and the rotary scales / encoders are not as direct as some other machines. Hypoid gears and all that … The parts coming off that machine though look very good though (modern machine / prismatic parts and more complex surfaces / compound curves.). Okuma seem to make that work.

    Are you liking the DMU 50 ? (if it's third gen ?) scales all axes right ? linear and rotary ? and what flavor of control did you 'plump' for ?

    Ta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Considering that the OSP 300 is clunky, ugly, and honestly pretty poorly supported; I could see some incentive to make a change.

    I really like my Genos M560, but every time it comes up I feel compelled to share that I hate the controller with a passion. After working for Mazak, then DMG MORI, it just feels SO incredibly dated and impotent.
    "Impotent" don't tell Rob of the 1st-house of "Little" that one … ;-)

    Interesting adjective as a lot of "Peeps" try to associate the word 'Power" / "powerful" control with the Okuma OSP 300 …

    My (somewhat distant ) impression is that because of Boeing's involvement in key stages of the control's design and implementation in partnership with Okuma (and vice versa) that a lot deeper functionality and pretty good documentation and programmed features were made for that control. Seems if you know what you are doing and know what you want you can dig fairly deep on that control and get what you want. [Horses for courses maybe ?].

    Connecting that extra "Dot" back to Japan could be tricky if you are not Boeing.

    I wonder also if there is to be a new control whether it's more "Industry 4.0" directed. That can be a hard sell sometimes even internally at Okuma USA.

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    That's not a bad thing - IMHO Okuma has the best control on the market, hands down...)
    mmmm, Maybe. I still think the A-2100 was/still is the best control to ever hit the shop floor.

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    Funny that you bring Boeing into the conversation. My career journey went like this:

    Boeing -> Mazak (distributor) -> DMG MORI (direct)

    I had some outside involvement with CNC controller automation at Boeing from 2012-2015, and almost everything I saw was Siemens 840D based. When I got into machine tool applications, I dug really deep into Mazak/misubishi, the Siemens 840D and 828D, Fanuc/MAPPS and Mitsubishi/MAPPS. Of those platforms, the Siemens has by far the most powerful tools for automation, parametric programming, etc.

    I was under the impression that if you dig really deep, the Okuma OSP had functionality roughly equivalent to the 840D. However, every time I try to do something "tricky" on the Okuma I find that it is lacking. And almost every time I ask a somewhat complex question about controller functionality, I get passed around until somebody just drops out.

    Honestly, the Boeing involvement makes perfect sense. If you walk through any of their machine shops, you won't see much (if any) Okuma. Perhaps there was a pile of them 20 or 30 years ago, and perhaps at that time Okuma made a market leading controller.

    Obviously what makes the "best" controller is totally subjective. All I can say with certainty that the OSP has really poor documentation for higher level programming, dubious functionality, and absolutely awful support. It's like working with a Fanuc that has 1/20th of the user base.

    My final comment in their defense, is that a lot of customers just need something with a nice touch screen, simple probing, and easy to navigate buttons. The OSP does provide that.

    *edit* and apologies for completely derailing this thread per usual

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  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Funny that you bring Boeing into the conversation. My career journey went like this:

    Boeing -> Mazak (distributor) -> DMG MORI (direct)

    I had some outside involvement with CNC controller automation at Boeing from 2012-2015, and almost everything I saw was Siemens 840D based. When I got into machine tool applications, I dug really deep into Mazak/misubishi, the Siemens 840D and 828D, Fanuc/MAPPS and Mitsubishi/MAPPS. Of those platforms, the Siemens has by far the most powerful tools for automation, parametric programming, etc.

    I was under the impression that if you dig really deep, the Okuma OSP had functionality roughly equivalent to the 840D. However, every time I try to do something "tricky" on the Okuma I find that it is lacking. And almost every time I ask a somewhat complex question about controller functionality, I get passed around until somebody just drops out.

    Honestly, the Boeing involvement makes perfect sense. If you walk through any of their machine shops, you won't see much (if any) Okuma. Perhaps there was a pile of them 20 or 30 years ago, and perhaps at that time Okuma made a market leading controller.

    Obviously what makes the "best" controller is totally subjective. All I can say with certainty that the OSP has really poor documentation for higher level programming, dubious functionality, and absolutely awful support. It's like working with a Fanuc that has 1/20th of the user base.

    *edit* and apologies for completely derailing this thread per usual
    Thanks for your candor / sharing your experiences.

    Not a total thread de-rail 'cuz begs the question is Okuma getting rid of old stock through amazing base price reductions on Genos M-560V and "Other" to make way for something new ?

    Maybe control oriented.

    IF Okuma were doing something new on the control "front" I'd be super interested.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

    Slightly Off - T:

    I've noticed Hardinge are now leaning more towards Mitsubishi controls front and back + compatible spindles ~ That might make for a much more stable arrangement / reliable future for their newer 3 and 5 axis verticals. etc. ?

    The Siemens controls do seem really friendly/ accessible, interesting point you make about automation.

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    @ cameraman

    Yes, I got the 3rd Gen. Siemens 840D. Scales on everything.

    For the price I am very satisfied. DMG MORI is dumping way more resources into R&D than everybody else, and it shows. Most of the quality-of-life issues from the 2nd gen were fixed. The 20k speedmaster is probably the best "all around" spindle in the industry. Accuracy and performance have been pretty consistent. Seems to have better thermal comp and stability than the Okuma when running long cycles with tons of surfacing.

    I do have a couple complaints. The optioning from the factory left some things to be desired. The conveyor sucks, and the chip wash coolant pump clogs after about 4 hours of cutting. There are some new manufacturer cycles for simultaneous 5 that were poorly implemented. It's a DMG, so it loves to have random intermittent issues.

    So yeah, it's go a few issues, but it's a cheap five axis -not a Hermle. The overall value is quite good, and the parts it produces are fantastic.

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  25. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    @ cameraman

    Yes, I got the 3rd Gen. Siemens 840D. Scales on everything.

    For the price I am very satisfied. DMG MORI is dumping way more resources into R&D than everybody else, and it shows. Most of the quality-of-life issues from the 2nd gen were fixed. The 20k speedmaster is probably the best "all around" spindle in the industry. Accuracy and performance have been pretty consistent. Seems to have better thermal comp and stability than the Okuma when running long cycles with tons of surfacing.

    I do have a couple complaints. The optioning from the factory left some things to be desired. The conveyor sucks, and the chip wash coolant pump clogs after about 4 hours of cutting. There are some new manufacturer cycles for simultaneous 5 that were poorly implemented. It's a DMG, so it loves to have random intermittent issues.

    So yeah, it's go a few issues, but it's a cheap five axis -not a Hermle. The overall value is quite good, and the parts it produces are fantastic.

    Sweet (really appreciate that).

    It's always a more complex constellation of strengths and weaknesses , so nice to hear something that sounds very real.

    I think possibly the nice thing with the scales all axes is that it should position pretty damn accurately for 15 years if not nearly 20.

    That's something that the HERMLE "Peeps" stress very much is long term accuracy and surface finishes (of course).

    I gotta admit that 20K speedmaster spindle is pretty damn sexy especially if you are into HSK … They even offer than now on the CMX 1100 V. + heidenhain linear scales (if you want it) , not quite as tight / straight as the DMU 50 3rd gen.



    __________________________________________________ ____________


    I wonder if like what Gkoenig is saying on the other HAAS UMC 1500 duo thread whether the DMU 50 3rd gen prices are coming back down - ish. Base price Hermle C250 ("Entry level machine" is $350 ish (but not as well equipped as one might hope perhaps) - does become a $400K proposition. Interesting that rumored quotes on the Okuma Genos M460-V 5ax in the neighborhood of $225 to $250K ?

    Apologies for thread integrity / temporary diversion.

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    When I got quotes the DMU50 3rd gen was discounted at an "introductory price" or something. Seems like Okuma went the other way and priced their early machines too high. By the time I got the M460-5ax and DMU50 all optioned out, they were within 10k of each other. It was a pretty easy decision; the DMU50 held 28 more tools, had a way, way better spindle, and a bigger work envelope.

    I really wanted to be able to afford a Hermle, but even the tiny C250 was out of reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    When I got quotes the DMU50 3rd gen was discounted at an "introductory price" or something. Seems like Okuma went the other way and priced their early machines too high. By the time I got the M460-5ax and DMU50 all optioned out, they were within 10k of each other. It was a pretty easy decision; the DMU50 held 28 more tools, had a way, way better spindle, and a bigger work envelope.

    I really wanted to be able to afford a Hermle, but even the tiny C250 was out of reach.
    Sounds like you bought at a really good time.

    The longer travels on DMU 3rd gen and extra iron really set it apart from it's predecessor.

    Nice.

    __________________________________________________ _________________

    Hermle really stands behind it's "product".


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