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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Hermle really stands behind it's "product".
    If you are so lucky that they actually want to sell you one .

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    If you are so lucky that they actually want to sell you one .
    Wow that bad,

    lol …

    Mild confession ~ In my area the original seller of Hermle's and Hurco's etc. was somebody that kinda hated my guts (no problem really) , very 'Odd" dynamic but he's not there anymore and they have a really super person higher up the chain that handles the Hurco's now. "They" don't do Hermle anymore.

    So no representation directly in CO. Another pretty good dealer from Utah (very experienced with Yasda level machines , hands on) and other was kinda handling Hermle for a while but they closed down.

    I think the problem there is (sometimes with local vendor) there is such an officious chain of paper work that goes all the way back to Germany that resellers/ (local vendors) probably don't want to lower their batting average. So if they don't quote anything then they can keep their "performance" monitoring artificially high.

    So I found sales through west coast general region , much better and technical inquiries VERY good at HQ in Wisconsin (direct). They were able to square the circle on a couple of tricky technical / application challenges/ issues. Truly excellent head and shoulder above the rest (for us at least).

    I'm more in high tech / precision mechanics / optics so the sales guy (nice guy) is also trying to sell the 'life style" He'll go Ohhh Apple bought this and Face Book just bought blah blah… For me that's a massive disincentive as the D***** bag's at the Book of Face are our direct competition and in technical circles should be sued for slander in some instances … + other natural competitors … WE don't want to be like Apple, not be "Like" FaceBook , not-like Google etc. lol.

    That is the one good thing about Okuma sales folks I've been in contact with, they really want to focus on the customer and sell the snot out of things (in a good way). Very positive and switched on and pretty focused.
    (get'er done kind of attitude.).

    @coffeetek what happened ? (If you don't mind me asking ?).

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post

    @coffetek what happened ? (If you don't mind me asking ?).
    Well, we tried to buy Hermle for specific application and got talking to them through the local sales guy which took our application case to the application engineer in Germany. They came back and said Herlme can't do it and would not sell us the machine. Chiron, Okuma and Matsuura didn't have any problems selling machine for our application. Interestingly Haas did balk too So Hermle==Haas!???

    I suspect something must have been lost in translation.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Well, we tried to buy Hermle for specific application and got talking to them through the local sales guy which took our application case to the application engineer in Germany. They came back and said Herlme can't do it and would not sell us the machine. Chiron, Okuma and Matsuura didn't have any problems selling machine for our application. Interestingly Haas did balk too So Hermle==Haas!???

    I suspect something must have been lost in translation.
    That's kinda funny …

    I think there's a difference of opinion on grinding or use of abrasives (for example with air spindles etc.) on the Hermles as a lot of the filtration systems and linear rolling element ways are not set up for that. The organic binder in various grinding wheels etc. + nearly naked slides.

    That's the nice thing about second hand machines you can tear into them a bit more.

    Not sure what your special applications was but that sounds like a very German outcome ! lol ;-)

    I've had that a lot over the years with different divisions of ZEISS … "But it's NOT designed for that !!!!" "But it works great !" "But it's NOT designed for that !!!!" "But it's fine it works great …" " "But it's NOT designed for that !!!!" Ad infinitum. In Germany they take "Design intent" super seriously. Like if it's not designed for that then massive liabilities cannot be accounted for , sort of cultural / technical "Tunnel thinking".

    Sounds like they thought your process was dangerous to the machine or people's lives perhaps ? And would not encourage bilateral "failures" even if it's a one in a thousand chance ? + lost in translation / can't get there from here (kind of thing).

    Funny that HAAS said "No" too. wild.

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Sounds like they thought your process was dangerous to the machine or people's lives perhaps ? And would not encourage bilateral "failures" even if it's a one in a thousand chance ? + lost in translation / can't get there from here (kind of thing).

    Funny that HAAS said "No" too. wild.
    Haas didn't balk on application, that was fine with them, they just couldn't do surface finish requirement. Application is really nothing crazy or out of bounds so I have no clue why Hermle would say no. As I said either something got lost in translation or they have too much business...

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Haas didn't balk on application, that was fine with them, they just couldn't do surface finish requirement. Application is really nothing crazy or out of bounds so I have no clue why Hermle would say no. As I said either something got lost in translation or they have too much business...
    Wow...

    ______

    I guess I find Hermle easy to work with as I have experience of various projects over the years in Germany/ international projects. I'm not 100% fluent in German but I have a very old German technical dictionary "Technishes English - Zerspanende Werkzeugmaschinen " that seems to help, and I'm pretty fluent bi-directional for Metric and "imperial"/ so called English Units for various functional tolerances .

    Hermle where they are situated / certain parts of Southern Germany are not sooooo naturally English speaking as other parts.

    But I could certainly imagine stuff tolerance wise and process wise getting lost in translation. (I guess I take that for granted + common sense, ~ I've caught tons of typos in product literature pretty much for every brand out there .).

    + non technical sales people as an extra layer.

    ____________________________


    Connecting dots to Taiwan ( Idon't speak/ read Mandarin / Chinese ) nor speak or read Japanese for connecting deeper dots to Japan, can slow things down.

    I'm not sure how Okuma handles all that , seems they muddle through somehow ?
    Last edited by cameraman; 02-08-2020 at 10:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's kinda my "Vibe" too...

    My hunch is that maybe it's something to do with a new control or switching in one of their newer designs of control that normally does not live on the Genos.

    If that is the case some 'peeps" will be pissed off they didn't wait to buy the newer machine that had the new control. But at such low base prices I don't think many will complain.

    ^^^^ Pure speculation / not a leak and not anything that I got from anyone working at Okuma.

    Pure guess.
    I heard some whispering a year ago already but I can't verify. They are working on OSP500 and skipping 400 because its a unlucky number in Japan.

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  12. #48
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    I'd buy a bunch of osp300 machines at a $30-50,000 discount.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Specs for the new Genos M660, over 24,000 Lbs, 48 Tools, 59"x26"x26" XYZ,

    M660-V-e – TATUNG-OKUMA CO.,LTD

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    It's a warranty issue with Okuma. Jeremy and I were having a debate about IF it could cause problems and he finally just flat out said if I put the two machines in at CM and they run standard tools, Okuma will void the warranty.

    It used to be a warranty issue here at Doosan at one time, or so they said. Mostly from a standpoint of using unlicensed dual contact holders in a Big Plus spindle not from using a standard holder in a Big Plus spindle. As time went by we realized that it was pretty much unenforceable. Doosan does not even offer a standard spindle, in either 40 or 50 taper. All Big Plus. So, how do you tell customers they can't use standard holders in our machines? You don't. And in all honesty, we have not seen any issues with spindles related to using standard holders or unlicensed dual contact holders provided they are purchased from a reputable tool holder manufacturer.

    Paul

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  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I wish I could use a Haas rotary in it. I have 15 of them that hardly get used.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    if space isn't the problem, as long as you can send a dprint command over serial you could use a haas rotary for indexing. I've done this on a Hitachi

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    When I got quotes the DMU50 3rd gen was discounted at an "introductory price" or something. Seems like Okuma went the other way and priced their early machines too high. By the time I got the M460-5ax and DMU50 all optioned out, they were within 10k of each other. It was a pretty easy decision; the DMU50 held 28 more tools, had a way, way better spindle, and a bigger work envelope.

    I really wanted to be able to afford a Hermle, but even the tiny C250 was out of reach.
    how much did the DMU50 set you back if not a secret?
    how do you like their support/service?
    i've had nothing but bad luck with both the machine and service.

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  21. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    how much did the DMU50 set you back if not a secret?
    how do you like their support/service?
    i've had nothing but bad luck with both the machine and service.
    Not sure if I am allowed to say? Have a good relationship with them that I don't want to jeopardize. It was "around" 300k, and like I said; within spitting distance of the price tag on the Okuma.

    I used to be an applications engineer for DMG MORI, so that kinda reduces my service needs. The service in this region is pretty good, especially relative to the competition. I'm very happy with the machine overall.

    Would be interested to hear your concerns, perhaps in another thread? If you were stuck in a region with poor support and no prior knowledge of how it should be configured, the DMU50 could be a nightmare. IME Germans to a terrible job of standardization. Have seen many DMG's that had some critical function setup incorrectly since brand new.

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  23. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Wow...

    ______

    I guess I find Hermle easy to work with as I have experience of various projects over the years in Germany/ international projects. I'm not 100% fluent in German but I have a very old German technical dictionary "Technishes English - Zerspanende Werkzeugmaschinen " that seems to help, and I'm pretty fluent bi-directional for Metric and "imperial"/ so called English Units for various functional tolerances .

    Hermle where they are situated / certain parts of Southern Germany are not sooooo naturally English speaking as other parts.

    But I could certainly imagine stuff tolerance wise and process wise getting lost in translation. (I guess I take that for granted + common sense, ~ I've caught tons of typos in product literature pretty much for every brand out there .).

    + non technical sales people as an extra layer.

    ____________________________


    Connecting dots to Taiwan ( Idon't speak/ read Mandarin / Chinese ) nor speak or read Japanese for connecting deeper dots to Japan, can slow things down.

    I'm not sure how Okuma handles all that , seems they muddle through somehow ?
    Technical German can get fairly funky at times. A good friend of mine, who grew up in Germany, still struggles sometimes with me trying to explain technical English. Even though I can poorly work my way through German, and his English is a lot better than my German, technical topics can still be a challenge.

    Maybe a better example, my wife has a German degree and is fluent in German. If I hand her a German technical drawing or blueprint, she can’t tell me what most of it says. Or she CAN tell me what it says, exactly what it says, but not what it means. Think: rotate line thread face clock (or something like that) means a timed thread starts at this plane.

    A funny story about “being able to buy a Hermle”. When I was running a Hermle the company was looking to replace it. It was almost 10 years old, and they were putting some serious money in it. I was down for a week while a tech replaced the C Axis bearing, Z ball screw and a few minor other things. It was something like a $80k service call. He was nice, he bought me dinner and a few beers . We got to talking about buying a new one and he just laughed, said no way in hell. Hermle has just signed a contract with Rolls Royce for something like 60 Hermle’s for their NC jet engine factory. I mentioned it to my lead man and you know how shop gossip goes. Before I know it I have the department head and director asking me what the hell is going on and why am I saying that the company can’t buy a Hermle. Well, we WERE a German company. So the director calls some big wig, some big wig calls The Fatherland. Some big wig there calls some big wig at Hermle. The big wig at Hermle apparently told him we could have any Hermle we wanted, whenever we wanted it. And that’s just what my very unhappy Director told me.

    I couldn’t get the littlest thing to change, or happen, at that company if my life literally depended on it, but somehow I instigated an international game of telephone because I made a wise crack that we couldn’t buy a Hermle.

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    So... there is one less Genos L250 lathe available than there was yesterday, because I just bought one today!

    I wasn't really planning to buy a lathe right now, but the pricing is really good and I really (really!) like Okuma. I have an older 4-axis live tool Okuma lathe and in the 13 years I have owned it, nothing has ever really gone wrong (that I couldn't easily fix myself), so I don't even know any of the Morris service people, but I have heard great things - plus they just opened a new service facility near me. My old Okuma and slow and a bit leaky here and there, but it's a tank and holds tenths all day long - despite coming from a factory that turned giant steel slugs in it all day long. When you work on the machine and see how it's built, it's really made right and no corners are cut. Okuma quality is top notch and I've been watching videos about the new OSP300 control and it really looks fantastic.

    I wanted a couple of options, so they had to source a machine for me - it's arriving on the boat the first week of march and should be on my floor a week or two later. That's two new machines for me in less than a year - I have a really small shop making my own parts, so for me this is a REALLY big deal. Part of the decision was because of how nice it is running a new machine compared to an old clunky one.

    I'm excited. Will get more excited as d-day gets closer

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  27. #56
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    Nice!!! I ordered 2 of them and plan to slap new royal Chuck's on both of them.

    Did you get the parts catcher?? I couldnt justify $6000 for that option.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Nice!!! I ordered 2 of them and plan to slap new royal Chuck's on both of them.

    Did you get the parts catcher?? I couldnt justify $6000 for that option.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    I did get the parts catcher... I will PM you some details What chucks are you going with - 5C/3J traditional collets or their Quick Grip system? I am on the fence... I have 5C and 3J and never found them to be slow to change out, so not sure if Quick Grip is worth it. The collets are expensive and I have heard of occasional issues with chips getting in them. I am going to barfeed so that would be a problem. On the other hand, .03+ closing range is nice. I do wonder how the rubber part of the collets would hold up over time?

    Leaning towards continuing with 5C... almost everything I do fits in 5C collets and I install the collet and spindle liner, and will usually run 20+ 4-foot bars making hundreds of parts before I need to change a collet to run another part from another size bar. Not seeing Quick Grip benefiting me, but maybe I am missing out on something great?

    Do you run any sort of quick change setup for turret tooling?

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  30. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    I did get the parts catcher... I will PM you some details What chucks are you going with - 5C/3J traditional collets or their Quick Grip system? I am on the fence... I have 5C and 3J and never found them to be slow to change out, so not sure if Quick Grip is worth it. The collets are expensive and I have heard of occasional issues with chips getting in them. I am going to barfeed so that would be a problem. On the other hand, .03+ closing range is nice. I do wonder how the rubber part of the collets would hold up over time?

    Leaning towards continuing with 5C... almost everything I do fits in 5C collets and I install the collet and spindle liner, and will usually run 20+ 4-foot bars making hundreds of parts before I need to change a collet to run another part from another size bar. Not seeing Quick Grip benefiting me, but maybe I am missing out on something great?

    Do you run any sort of quick change setup for turret tooling?
    Congrats!

    I have never used the Quick Grip, but looking at it, it is the near opposite of the Jacobs Rubberflex, that is, the Jacobs is mostly rubber, with precision ground inserts that grab a hold of the steel, encased in a rubber collet. The Quick Grip is 3 large pieces of steel with rubber connections. I would suspect you will have similar issues, that is, chips packing in between the faces. Having never run one...

    Nearly $300 a collet is a bit hard to swallow... I would need so many different collets, I am not sure I could justify it...

    If your setting it up for bar feed and have standard parts to run, you may only need a few collets.

    I have a drawer full of top quality 5c, NOS Hardinge and other top quality brands are relatively cheap and available. I would have a hard time moving away from that...

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    I'm going with the quickgrip. We have this on another lathe and love it. I may bump up to the larger size, not sure yet.




    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Congrats!

    I have never used the Quick Grip, but looking at it, it is the near opposite of the Jacobs Rubberflex, that is, the Jacobs is mostly rubber, with precision ground inserts that grab a hold of the steel, encased in a rubber collet. The Quick Grip is 3 large pieces of steel with rubber connections. I would suspect you will have similar issues, that is, chips packing in between the faces. Having never run one...

    Nearly $300 a collet is a bit hard to swallow... I would need so many different collets, I am not sure I could justify it...

    If your setting it up for bar feed and have standard parts to run, you may only need a few collets.

    I have a drawer full of top quality 5c, NOS Hardinge and other top quality brands are relatively cheap and available. I would have a hard time moving away from that...

    Yeah I think I will stick with 5C for now. I built up a pretty big collection of Hardinge collets (bought mostly new from Hardinge too, gulp!) and even going with my 5-7 most common sizes in quick grip would be $2k. I'd rather drop that money into more tooling and getting off my lazy ass and actually setting up one of the two LNS barfeeders I've had sitting in the corner of the shop for, ugh, probably a year or more now! Just need to clone myself so I can get more work done in the waking hours of the day.


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