OT-If Apple Were A Worker Cooperative, Each Employee Would Earn At Least $403K - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 50 of 50
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    VA, USA
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    54
    Likes (Received)
    100

    Default

    Interesting thread and full varied insights on how things should be done and what the outcome of them would be.

    Lets look at where the comments are coming from, or rather not coming from; China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea... I haven't really heard of citizens of the U.S. wanting to move to any of those countries on a massive level. Sure, Bernie Sanders would be happy in Russia (and actually praised Venezuela) and some commenters on this thread would enjoy China. But there is not a massive or large push to move there. Why?

    Kids these days are pushing socialism, they are being taught by "professors" at universities that put them in massive debt. Those very teachers are making a ton of money and increase the cost the tuition annually as the Government backs the students loans. Then add the cost of dorm rooms, many Universities say you have to live in them for the first year or two, why is that.

    Companies that receive or are offered massive tax breaks was brought up. Why does a government offer massive tax breaks? Because they tax the hell out of you. NYC takes approximately 60% of the money you make. So why in the world would a smart person say "hell yeah, I want to be there!!! Can you tax me more?!" After all, you have to pay for students education at universities where professors make a ton of money and Universities charge high rates for dorm rooms. Amazon made a decision to drop NYC, uhmm... why? Embrace socialism and more taxes to pay for all the social programs. No, people and businesses are moving out of NY/NYC and CA...

    Have you heard of a Business Privilege Tax? I have, in fact I have to pay a Business Privilege Tax on top of all the other taxes.

    Side note: I was just listening to AOC, she said people should not be afraid of Automation, it creates more time for art, time for yourself, invention and many other things.... So embrace automation.



    Yeah for those embracing the socialist lifestyle really take a look at what it offers. Socialism, socialist, democratic socialism, and the list goes on- bottom line, they are all used to push the same agenda. The name may change, but it still has the same effect or trend in the same direction. One can be political and the other economic, but they compliment each other.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,151
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7491
    Likes (Received)
    5066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    Have you heard of a Business Privilege Tax? I have, in fact I have to pay a Business Privilege Tax on top of all the other taxes.
    Yeah, bear in mind, "You didn't build that." Not that AOC will likely remain influential beyond their next defeat, but thanks to their middle-school indoctrination there seems to be no shortage of useful idiots preparing to run for office on the Death to the Bourgeois Exploiters of the Proletariat platform.

    You're right there in the heart of it, too. Consider voting with your feet.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,151
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7491
    Likes (Received)
    5066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    This thread is pretty funny, actually. It's like a giant argument between Lutherans and Baptists about the nature of God.

    But it's all hot air, ya know ? A country can be fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, or aliens from Mars and none of it makes any difference. If the people running things do a good job and look out for their people it will be an okay place. If they are selfish greedy pricks it will be a bad place. -isms are just irrelevant theology ....
    That is oversimplified. You want simplification, how about this breakdown of the political spectrum:

    All collectivist politics are on the Left, be it Democratic Socialism, National Socialism, or International Socialism. To varying degrees they all effectively abolish private property. Because socialism inherently violates human nature, it requires varying degrees of coercion, whether overt or implicit, performed by commissars under whatever name or guise. It has always been popular on the left to use the term "democracy."

    Individualist politics are on the right, ranging from the Tea Party through Libertarianism all the way to Anarchism. On the right there is an instinctive awareness that the above "democratic" arrangements simply—and primarily—cannot afford to leave you alone.

    That can be summed up by the description, "A democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch," wherein the minority are the Makers and the majority are the Takers.

  4. Likes BoxcarPete liked this post
  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    398
    Likes (Received)
    1546

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Shop View Post
    ...Apple put aside $100 billion for stock buybacks and spent $30. My money says when they miss their earnings, they’ll artificially prop it up with more buybacks. What was illegal 35-40 years ago is now common practice. Corporate America, with their “MAGA Tax breaks” spent $1.1trillion on stock buybacks in 2018. That’s the most in the history of our country.
    That's good. That means there is an additional $1.1 trillion at work in our economy than before.

    It doesn't matter if Apple buys their own stock. The money goes to back to the investors, who reinvest it elsewhere. If Apple doesn't use the capital to grow, someone else does.

    The money doesn't magically disappear from the economy. It just gets reallocated to some other productive use. Capital never sits idle for long.

    I would rather have that money put to work in the US than sitting in a bank in Ireland or the Cayman Islands...

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    7,210
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    344
    Likes (Received)
    6079

    Default

    One wonders if Apple had been a worker owned company where it would be now.
    If you are not familiar with the history It came very close to going belly up a few times and that "outside" money propped it up during the bad times when in fact it should have rolled over died.
    I own part of Apple, I am not a rich guy so categorizing the "investors" as such is maybe not spot on.
    I freely admit to bias but few from the microprocessor start-ups from this time are around... Actually, name one other.
    Now they are successful and everyone wants to throw rocks at them. Why?
    Bob

  7. Likes drom68, PDW liked this post
  8. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,186
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    933
    Likes (Received)
    5201

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    One wonders if Apple had been a worker owned company where it would be now.
    If you are not familiar with the history It came very close to going belly up a few times and that "outside" money propped it up during the bad times when in fact it should have rolled over died.
    I own part of Apple, I am not a rich guy so categorizing the "investors" as such is maybe not spot on.
    I freely admit to bias but few from the microprocessor start-ups from this time are around... Actually, name one other.
    Now they are successful and everyone wants to throw rocks at them. Why?
    Bob
    Worker owned companies can take loans, issue bonds, and even take partners- Its rare they would do the last, but certainly possible. Sometimes, when they need to, Worker owned companies accept buyouts, and the "investors"- the workers, get paid for their shares.

    I, too, own some Apple- and its been a good investment for me.

    A lot of people in this thread are raising the boogie man of collectivization- but nobody has proposed that for a single company in the US, or europe, in decades or more. No democratic or democratic socialist government is proposing Socialist takeovers of private industry, and the few remaining socialist economies are becoming less so-
    Korea is basically a single owner country, not any true socialist or collectivist country. If you displease the owner/dictator, he does things like have you shot with anti-aircraft guns, even if you are family. Not exactly textbook Marx or Lenin.

    China has a lot of government owned companies- but, instead of workers collectives, most employ hourly workers, who they can, and do, fire if things slow down.
    Socialist, but thru the invisible hand of capitalist shareholdings, banks, and shell companies.

    Venezuela is a military dictatorship, with some socialist propaganda hiding the true fact that, again, one guy runs it all, and continually fires those poor collectivist workers.

    Cuba is about the only real "socialist" country left, and its been making exceptions for capitalist, non-collective companies and businesses, and foreign investment and foreign ownership, for decades now.

    Rather than being a big scary evil on the horizon, socialism seems to have been pretty thoroughly beaten again and again by dictators, oligarchs, and capitalism in most every case.

  9. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    398
    Likes (Received)
    1546

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    ...I own part of Apple, I am not a rich guy so categorizing the "investors" as such is maybe not spot on.
    And if you looked at the number of individual shareholders, most would be people just like you and Ries.

    There are large shareholders, but those are usually institutional investors- pension funds, universities, municipal funds, etc.

    Hard to find the boogeymen when you look...

  10. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    West Coast, USA
    Posts
    7,315
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    438
    Likes (Received)
    4802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drom68 View Post
    . . .

    (1) . . . Lets look at where the comments are coming from, or rather not coming from; China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea... I haven't really heard of citizens of the U.S. wanting to move to any of those countries on a massive level. . . .

    (2) Sure, Bernie Sanders would be happy in Russia . . .

    (3) . . . and some commenters on this thread would enjoy China.

    (4) . . . Kids these days are pushing socialism . . .

    (5) . . . Why does a government offer massive tax breaks? Because they tax the hell out of you. . . .

    (6) . . . NYC takes approximately 60% of the money you make. . .
    Kind of amazing that people look at one or two new Congress Critters (O.A.C. etc.) and think the world is ending cause they're self-avowed socialists. Heck, the world hasn't ended when we have truly stupid, greedy, lying, bribe-taking, racist, etc. Congressmen. Those are likely traits even more damaging to the electorate. But, to your points . . .

    1) You started out strong -- very few in one of the world's thirty or so relative wealthy and free democracies wants to live in a place like North Korea. Not even O.A.C. I'd wager. Lots, however, might include places were "social democracies" reign.

    2) I seriously doubt it. Back in 2014 Sanders was saying something to the effect that the whole world had to stand up to Putin for invading Crimea. In comparison, two years (2016) later Donald Trump didn't even know Russian forces were in Crimea.

    3) That would be "Emmanuel."

    4) Kids these days aren't all of anything these days, never were. Some are conservatives. Some are progressives. A whole bunch aren't much involved in politics, witness their voting records. It's likely true a majority don't think we older folks are leaving them all that great prospects. Back when I was a kid some of us went off to the Vietnam War. Others (my God! Commies!!) thought the war was a bad idea.

    5) There's no simple truth that the government takes so much from everyone, that it's a slam dunk they'll give some back in tax breaks. Give lobbyists time and too little oversight -- and they'll keep working the system. As a result, some people pay next to no taxes, and still get breaks. Others never get a break. Fairness is one of those issues requiring continuous attention.

    6) No, New York City doesn't take 60% of everything everyone makes. The top city income tax rate is 3.8% You could have checked it yourself: New York City Income Tax Rates and Credits

  11. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    West Coast, USA
    Posts
    7,315
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    438
    Likes (Received)
    4802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    . . . All collectivist politics are on the Left, be it Democratic Socialism, National Socialism, or International Socialism. To varying degrees they all effectively abolish private property. Because socialism inherently violates human nature, it requires varying degrees of coercion . . .
    Both socialism and capitalism require some degree of coercion. Could add marriages and partnerships to the list, I suppose.

    As for human nature -- we humans got started a while ago -- some 50,000 or more years ago. In the comparatively recent past we were hunter-gatherers with not much in the way of personal property and no one selling condos and time shares. Just a few centuries ago we were teaching Indians about private property, putting up fences, and a century later owning and selling people as slaves.

    Dalai Lama, Gandhi, and Mother Teresa -- and lots of religions have vows of poverty. Jesus thought being rich an impediment to entering into Heaven (like a camel passing through the eye of a needle). Some of our greatest inventors, scientists, and artists are more about creating something than owning more of something else. Einstein didn't always make ends meet. Billionaires like Buffet live simple lives and donate most of what they own. Some folks like to simplify their lives. And whether it's business associations, insurance, private companies etc. -- there are centuries worth of people banding together (my goodness, they're socializing) for shared benefit.

    Point is, it's not like someone who wants to share something is violating the number one law of human nature -- or likely represents some existential threat.

    Now, personally, I'm a fan of creating stuff, earning a living from it, and keeping most of the proceeds. I like having my own home, business, tools, books, vehicles . . . and even think twice about lending them out. I'd guess that 99% of us like the notion of having our own stuff -- probably even O.A.C.

    Still, it doesn't occur to me that private property (say, Trump, with lots of it collected partly at the expensive of customers, contractors, investors, taxpayers) is what defines humanity. Greed and narcissism -- and there's some of it in most and maybe all of us -- is part of human nature. But so are acts of sharing, kindness, and understanding.

    So, back to politics.

    Far as I can tell, one difference between those on the left and right is who they fear is hankering to take their stuff.

    Some on the left rightly fear wolves -- those with the money, power, guns, big teeth, etc. to have their way. They band together in mutual protection associations (trade unions, business associations, cities, co-ops, police and fire services, elected governments, etc.) to better protect what they have -- including such things as clean air and clean water.

    Some on the right might want to run with the wolves (more power, hidden money, hired guns) to expand what they have. Others may fear the power of unions, lawyers, elected governments to take what modest property they have.

    The left would be right that a Goldman Sachs and kin might take a big chunk of their retirement. The right would be right that an ineffective and over-reaching government might piss away a big chunk of their retirement. In the best of worlds they'd keep an eye on each other and moderate the worst excesses from both sides.

    Back to the OP -- I doubt that either the political left or the right has a good idea of how to better run Apple than the gang currently running it (and that gang far from perfect). What's cool is that there are still guys like Wozniak trying to create stuff -- and that the Bay Area still has all sorts of companies starting up. Keep educating our kids, providing decent business and civic infrastructure -- and that can continue.

  12. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    VA, USA
    Posts
    278
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    54
    Likes (Received)
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Kind of amazing that people look at one or two new Congress Critters (O.A.C. etc.) and think the world is ending cause they're self-avowed socialists. Heck, the world hasn't ended when we have truly stupid, greedy, lying, bribe-taking, racist, etc. Congressmen. Those are likely traits even more damaging to the electorate. But, to your points . . .

    1) You started out strong -- very few in one of the world's thirty or so relative wealthy and free democracies wants to live in a place like North Korea. Not even O.A.C. I'd wager. Lots, however, might include places were "social democracies" reign.

    2) I seriously doubt it. Back in 2014 Sanders was saying something to the effect that the whole world had to stand up to Putin for invading Crimea. In comparison, two years (2016) later Donald Trump didn't even know Russian forces were in Crimea.

    3) That would be "Emmanuel."

    4) Kids these days aren't all of anything these days, never were. Some are conservatives. Some are progressives. A whole bunch aren't much involved in politics, witness their voting records. It's likely true a majority don't think we older folks are leaving them all that great prospects. Back when I was a kid some of us went off to the Vietnam War. Others (my God! Commies!!) thought the war was a bad idea.

    5) There's no simple truth that the government takes so much from everyone, that it's a slam dunk they'll give some back in tax breaks. Give lobbyists time and too little oversight -- and they'll keep working the system. As a result, some people pay next to no taxes, and still get breaks. Others never get a break. Fairness is one of those issues requiring continuous attention.

    6) No, New York City doesn't take 60% of everything everyone makes. The top city income tax rate is 3.8% You could have checked it yourself: New York City Income Tax Rates and Credits
    Only news sources and extremist groups from both sides think the world is ending. As for "when we have truly stupid, greedy, lying, bribe-taking, racist, etc. Congressmen." I would have to say the liberal side has many of these traits. Do a complete study on racism in the democratic party, don't cherry pick your sources. Same with greed and bribe-taking, do some truthful research.

    (2) Sanders would be happy in Russia, look at his history as a whole. He may not like Putin and the invasion of Crimea, but take a look at what he has said in the past about Russia. I don't consider him an extremest, but he is a Socialist and has gotten rich as a politician. Quoting something a politician said on a specific date is cherry picking and leaving out the whole.

    (4) I agree with your comments, but have to say that a large majority of college students are being taught liberal or progressive ideals. There are kids that don't attend college and some that enlist in the military up completion of High School.

    (5) Fairness according to which side, the rich or the poor. Each will complain and politicians will gladly use those complaints to further an agenda.

    (6) My comment on taxes in NY/NYC was over generalized. NY has some of the most complicated tax structures in the country. They made it that way as they want to close any and all loop-holes. NY has many shops closing and moving out of state. I have bought machines from owners closing up shop, their biggest comment- Taxes, they lose more every year and find it difficult to keep up.
    Taxes in New York for Small Business: The Basics

    As or Apple and their employees, I don't hear the employees complaining. What you do see are those that want to bring up the "what if's" in life to show that "yes, you could be rich if all things were fair".

    Apple has had it's failures and successes. When a company fails not much is said, GM... When one is extremely successful it is attacked. Apple did great things in many ways. The employees made it happen and even those in China, that make many of the parts, contributed in that success story.

    Why did Apple outsource to China?
    Why did Apple and other companies have holdings overseas?
    Overseas Cash: Apple and Other Companies Have Big Tax Bills | Fortune

    Forgot to mention, in your post you mentioned "some of us went off to the Vietnam War" Thanks for your service. I spent 25years active duty.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •