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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    Also all of your blather about the 1970s may be correct but that is a somewhat difficult topic.
    No it isn't, poops. When you look for 'why is a person sick' you don't just look at what they may have picked up in the waiting room. The US has been sick for a long long time, and the people you tell us to read are the very same ones who were promoting this crap fifty years ago. MMS was nothing but a bunch of whores for Japan in the eighties, when manufacturing took its death stroke. Sure, it didn't fall down until China came along but it had knife wounds in the chest, stomach, heart, liver and throat. Stuff like "China's role" is silly. Japan was there first, and along with them the whole vampire capitalists thing which destroyed the US machine tool industry. The US cannibalized its own best assets for thirty pieces of silver, to giant cheers from the peanut gallery.

    Your entire post is the very reason why people thing the "old timer" machinists are assholes.
    Of course we're assholes. We've watched while twits rah-rahed banking at the expense of manufacturing. But banking doesn't actually produce doodly-squat. Now you guys are all pointing to totally the wrong causes, and it's pitiful.

    Your tone couldn't be more condescending.
    Ha ! you ain't seen nuthin yet, I was being kind

    But oh well, you can just keep blaming the computer programmers and baristas like it is their fault....
    You're a dumb fuck if you don't blame the baristas and website programmers. The whole society from top to bottom doesn't want to do dirty work. They want to have engaging and fulfilling careers chatting about profound subjects, not drilling holes. That's okay fine if that's what they want, but as a result, quit snivelling about what happens when your society chooses to not make things. China makes stuff. You didn't want to. Pointless to bitch about it now.

    It was all about the "switch to a service economy" and most everybody went along with it. Some of us thought "Service economy ? As in, cleaning toilets ? That's better ?" but not enough.

    The financiers won. You guys didn't fight because you thought it would be cooler to stand behind a bar and make lattes than run a lathe. Now you've lost, no point in whining.

    This whole "build back better" stuff ? A crock of shit that will only piss away lots of money to no effect. The ONLY way to change things is change the tax code.

    Not gonna happen.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    J

    IMO though, China will never match the Japanese intelligence and capability, because of cultural differences between the two nations.
    ....
    Just like with the Internet powerhouse companies, he who gets there first and establishes dominance in the market becomes almost impossible to dethrone.
    .

    Interesting view.
    Not sure how to address number one or understand it. Lots of brainpower in a country this sized.
    Assume that in a population there are 1-2% crazy bright people. More population means more born as wild smart.
    In the far past the system in China did not like this but the times have so changed.
    Japan came out of making junk to where it is now due to our help. I'm sure you know who Deming is.

    On two Cincinnati-Milacron king of the hill in nc/cnc and they got spanked. GM and Ford miles above Toyota and Honda at one point.
    Will an upstart in China do the same to Mazak and Okuma? Sony is already falling off the map.
    I remember when Japan was a joke to be not taken seriously. How did that work out?
    A long time back I was the first USA distributor for a couple of big Japanese cutting tools. It was almost impossible to sell such at the time yet now accepted.

    It's all great to think China as junk trinkets as we once did Japan but lessons are learned.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    J

    IMO though, China will never match the Japanese intelligence and capability, because of cultural differences between the two nations.
    ....
    Just like with the Internet powerhouse companies, he who gets there first and establishes dominance in the market becomes almost impossible to dethrone.
    .

    Interesting view.
    Not sure how to address number one or understand it. Lots of brainpower in a country this sized.
    Assume that in a population there are 1-2% crazy bright people. More population means more born as wild smart.
    In the far past the system in China did not like this but the times have so changed.
    Japan came out of making junk to where it is now due to our help. I'm sure you know who Deming is.

    On two Cincinnati-Milacron king of the hill in nc/cnc and they got spanked. GM and Ford miles above Toyota and Honda at one point.
    Will an upstart in China do the same to Mazak and Okuma? Sony is already falling off the map.
    I remember when Japan was a joke to be not taken seriously. How did that work out for China?

    The most surprising thing I see is some view that there is a "intelligence and capability" gap or difference in China vs USA.
    This is top of the hill thinking and underestimating the opponent.
    Bob

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    I tend to look at the fact that the rich 5% are getting all the increases and the rest of us are stagnant. The wealth of the country is being concentrated in the very elite top and the rest are just a method of acquiring more cash for the rich.

    This country has a lot of wealth, and providing health care and living wages just always seem to be the one thing we can't afford. Wars we can afford, trade wars we can afford, welfare for the largest corporations we can afford. But we cannot afford to pay a living wage and take care of our fellow brothers and sister of this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCS Machine View Post
    How much of this increase in pricing, not just in this industry, but market wide is due to the fact that the Dems feel everyone should start out with a minimum wage of $15is/hour?

    When the person dropping fries at the fast food place makes $30k per year, how does anyone expect to see low prices for anything? All these politicians think they are doing the lower class a huge favor by boosting their wage and bringing them out of poverty. All they are doing is causing business across the board to raise their prices to offset the higher starting wage which, in turn, causes everyone to pay more for the basic need items. When this happens, do the lower class wage earners really get ahead? NO.

    The poor will still be poor and the middle and upper class workers, who didn't see any wage increase, will fall behind.

    And don't even get me started on stimulus $. Enough is enough, There is a help wanted sign on just about every store window you look at. There are jobs to be had. Now we need to give people a reason to get off the couch and work.

    My rant is over.
    oh the politicians know this. they're relying on the common citizen to continue being a stupid fucking sheep and vote for shit that makes them feel good on the surface, but fucks them raw down the road. until the people wake up, this will keep on happening - BY BOTH PARTIES.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwmachine View Post
    If things are more expensive just work harder. Can't deny a good profit, eh? People in the 60s went to college on a part time job and came out with no debt, a house, and a car. Find your bootstraps and pull. You want the gov to make prices lower? Commie much?
    hard to blame this on commies seeing as how this is caused by the govt.

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    [QUOTE=metalmadness;3772639

    Anyone who believes this is temporary inflation has been smoking something i'd like to get my hands on.

    Or on the other hand I am completely wrong and everything will return back to 'normal'.[/QUOTE]

    Trust in our God Capitalism- go back to sleep, all will be well.

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    Default OT? Uber inflation ramping up?

    Capitalism has the best odds at equalizing supply and demand imbalances.

    If the price spikes in lumber and other commodities are not actually driven by short supply or high demand, then market competition will level out any price gouging soon enough.

    Today the local Home Depot has 7/16” OSB proudly displayed at $49.97 per sheet. Yet they had multiple huge stacks of the stuff stacked inside and outside. There’s simply not enough new construction going on in my region to merit this level of price inflation on a housebuilding commodity.

    Sooner or later the OSB suppliers, middlemen, and retailers will get tired of looking at those huge stacks of lumber, and hopefully then prices will self-regulate back to some semblance of normalcy.

    The Federal government pumping trillions into an already hot economy is just stupid. They should rename the Democrat party the Pandercrat party, because that’s all they seem to be able to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    . . . The Federal government pumping trillions into an already hot economy is just stupid. They should rename the Democrat party the Pandercrat party, because that’s all they seem to be able to do.
    Playing Rip Van Winkle in the previous four years? We were pumping near a trillion a year of borrowed money into the economy - with most of it aimed at pumping up Dow-sized stock prices.

    Far as I can tell, actually building some infrastructure will do the nation a bit more good than increasing the stock prices of pharma, finance, real estate, etc. firms. IMO, the previous administration got an "F" for investing in our future. Current one might up that to a "C" or even a "B"?? Preparing to compete in a more sustainable energy regime should be a plus.

    As for inflation - one good sign is that lumber futures are now way down. Consumers (like myself) are deferring building projects until sanity returns.

    I suspect many services (restaurant meals, the local barbers, overseas travel, etc.) will have higher and stickier prices. Thing is, one thing the last year taught many of us is that we can actually cook our own breakfasts; not everyone needs to visit a hair salon every two weeks; and there's plenty to see and do closer to home.

    We should be fine if we get back to actually creating and building stuff of real value, rather than thinking making money off money is the key to the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebfab View Post
    Well, it didnt take long to blame a political party......

    On to an actual question and observation.

    28 years ago I worked at a grocery store. they paid me $8 an hour. At the time a new f150 was .... $12K? Hamburg was $1lb. My health insurance with low deductible was $100 month. Rent was $450? Fast forward..... That store still pays $8 an hour. That truck is $50k? Hamburg is $5lb, insurance with high deductible for same age is $600? Same apartment is $1350. My friend with 200 head of cattle says he isnt getting much more for them now then he was then. WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING? What is the cost of a bushel of wheat vs box of cereal?

    Are the poor working $8 an hour jobs getting food stamps, medicaid, WIC etc? We are subsidizing the $8 an hour worker with our taxes while large companies are keeping the gains and forming ever larger monopolies. At $10 an hour its makes economic sense to stay home and watch your own kids and go broke slowly even if you dont get enhanced unemployment (you may still get WIC, food stamps, medicaid), rather then go to work and spend more then you make on transportation and child care. Now some of you are saying cut it all off and make them work (very christian of you, starving children!) but how about we kick up and not down. How about we victimize the CEO (and hedge funds, stock holders, etc)raking in millions while paying pennies to workers and even less % of taxes then we do, while sending jobs oversees and buying congressmen with his spare change.

    I feel bad for the small business. They cant absorb the price increase in goods or labor. They have to pass it on.
    Let me fix your "facts". Both parties skew facts to their advantage.

    North Carolina min wage 28 years ago was $4.25. If you were making $8/hr then you were doing very well at a grocery store. Min wage in N. Carolina now is $7.25, but most grocery stores are hiring well above that - $10-12 range.
    F-150 in 1993 started at $11,138 for base model. That is now $29,290 for the base model...a far cry from your claim of $50,000.
    When your "facts" are wrong it takes away from the rest of your argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradleyk View Post
    Let me fix your "facts". Both parties skew facts to their advantage.

    North Carolina min wage 28 years ago was $4.25. If you were making $8/hr then you were doing very well at a grocery store. Min wage in N. Carolina now is $7.25, but most grocery stores are hiring well above that - $10-12 range.
    F-150 in 1993 started at $11,138 for base model. That is now $29,290 for the base model...a far cry from your claim of $50,000.
    When your "facts" are wrong it takes away from the rest of your argument.

    That may be MSRP... But I haven't seen one sell for anywhere near that. This link shows dealer inventory near me, and there's not one listed for less than $40K... https://shop.ford.com/inventory/f150...ect-bb-si-f150

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    1970 Ford E100, 302 w/three on the tree, $3,000 USD.

    House, $50,000 to $100,000

    Wages, $2.50 to $5.00/hr (1975)

    Most things up by 10x. Wages, not so much.

    If I had to start off today I'd have a much worse life. (Pussy costs money)

    Could this be partially a cause for some of the anger in the US ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    That may be MSRP... But I haven't seen one sell for anywhere near that. This link shows dealer inventory near me, and there's not one listed for less than $40K... https://shop.ford.com/inventory/f150...ect-bb-si-f150
    Teach, that is not a very good measure.
    Back in the mid 80-s, a new F150 was a truck for the average working guy with some cash or small businesses needed to have their own way of hauling stuff.
    Nowadays, every swingin' Dick that wants to look cool is doing it in an F150, but they wouldn't be caught dead in anything but a decked out, fully loaded model.
    So, while the overwhelming majority of trucks in the 80-s was the base model, no frills bench seat, manual window crank, AM/FM radio with only one speaker in the middle of the dashboard,
    virtually ALL of the trucks today are at least as loaded as a Bugatti of the mid 90-s, with a good number of them being of the Redneck Cadillac variety of the Lariat or King Rancher sort.

    You still absolutely CAN custom order a base F150 ( or any other truck for that matter ), but no dealer would dare to ever order one for their own inventory.
    What they sometimes do is that a few dealers get together and order a single absolute bare-bone model for the just-in-case I am desperate walk in customer with cash-in-hand
    for an on the spot delivery, but even those are likely to be a Super Duty 250 or 350 instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    1970 Ford E100, 302 w/three on the tree, $3,000 USD.

    House, $50,000 to $100,000

    Wages, $2.50 to $5.00/hr (1975)

    Most things up by 10x. Wages, not so much.

    Could this be partially a cause for some of the anger in the US ?
    American’s problem is envy.

    We’re all green with it, trying to live the life we see others living.

    We’re not happy with what we have.

    We’re spoiled like a bunch of babies.

    A neighbor, a co-worker, a brother-in-law, parents of the kid’s friends, a country club buddy…. It seems everybody has a bigger house, a newer SUV, go on more vacations, blah, blah, blah!

    Even the bums and takers in America try to outdo the other bums and takers, with more tattoos, a bigger 4x4, more kids, better drugs, …whatever it may be.

    We Americans have it pretty damn good, we’re just too stupid to realize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    1970 Ford E100, 302 w/three on the tree, $3,000 USD.

    House, $50,000 to $100,000

    Wages, $2.50 to $5.00/hr (1975)

    Most things up by 10x. Wages, not so much.

    If I had to start off today I'd have a much worse life. (Pussy costs money)

    Could this be partially a cause for some of the anger in the US ?
    A couple years ago I bought two F150 new from the dealer, stripped with the V6, for $24k each.

    In Wisconsin you can buy a nice home for $200k. I also have a home in Los Angeles. Prices are higher there.

    As for wages I have to pay between $20 and $25 per hour to get someone who knows which end of a screw driver to hold.

    So wages up 10X, car up 10X, house up 3X.

    I’ve got guys just out of high school buying houses. Maybe a little help from their parents with the down.

    So life is good. Put me in the otrt camp. Reading the posts on this board this is some kind of hell hole, walking outside I don’t see that. Case of sour grapes?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradleyk View Post
    Let me fix your "facts". Both parties skew facts to their advantage.

    North Carolina min wage 28 years ago was $4.25. If you were making $8/hr then you were doing very well at a grocery store. Min wage in N. Carolina now is $7.25, but most grocery stores are hiring well above that - $10-12 range.
    F-150 in 1993 started at $11,138 for base model. That is now $29,290 for the base model...a far cry from your claim of $50,000.
    When your "facts" are wrong it takes away from the rest of your argument.
    Go to the dealership and see if you can find an f truck in stock for that price.... as for the $8 an hour thats what they paid. Booming economy, College town. That's how they found employees, and even at that short staffed. And one of my students worked for the same store. (Was 3 years ago, so may well be off) and they paid him $8. The store also did there best to automate, consolidate and reduce headcount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebfab View Post
    Go to the dealership and see if you can find an f truck in stock for that price....
    See my post above, and blame the Dickhead Yankees coming from my neck of the woods in CT, MA, NY, RI, NH, VT or ME.

    An F truck can be had for that price, but you better order it special 'cos the yuppie asshats want nothing to do with that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebfab View Post
    Go to the dealership and see if you can find an f truck in stock for that price.... as for the $8 an hour thats what they paid. Booming economy, College town. That's how they found employees, and even at that short staffed. And one of my students worked for the same store. (Was 3 years ago, so may well be off) and they paid him $8. The store also did there best to automate, consolidate and reduce headcount.
    I am merely stating to use facts and not generalized exaggerations.
    At least you admit that your $8/hr "fact" was from three years ago and not today.
    Also, you said a $12,000 truck is now $50,000. That is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Just because it's difficult to find a base model truck doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Inflation on vehicles has gone up only slightly more than wages. If they still made vehicles exactly the same as in 1993 I would argue that the inflation would be right in line with the percentage of wage increase. Consider the following advancements since 1993:
    1. All vehicles have multiple airbags
    2. All vehicles have anti-lock brakes
    3. All vehicles have some type of electronic stability control.
    4. All vehicles have rear-view cameras (I don't think it's even an option anymore).
    5. Gas mileage and horsepower have both increased with lower emissions.
    6. Most vehicles get air conditioning on base models
    7. Most vehicles get power windows on base models.

    The list could go on.... bottom line, vehicles are cleaner, safer, and more powerful now compared to 1993. There's certainly a cost for that above standard inflation that will get passed on to the consumer. Vehicles are not a good example of inflation or any kind of predatory pricing to the lower class. The profit margin on new vehicles is extremely low compared to grab-and-go items at any convenience store.

    It's the day-to-day stuff in poor neighborhoods that keep poor people poor. Grocery items, high interest rates on the corner car lot, high insurance costs, predatory lending, etc... But, it's also priority on what one decides to spend money on. It's not about how much one makes, but how much one spends. That takes training and intervention (maybe at the cost of taxpayers), not necessarily government handouts without consequence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    It isn't 5 or 10% and shipping is not expensive. Roughly $2500 for a 50,000 lb container. Could do 80 but then trucks can't haul it. Dream on with your prospective corrections

    btw, most of you guys are just as guilty. Most of you are running Jap machines with Jap controls and buying Mitutoyo. People who live in grass shacks shouldn't stow thrones.

    Was talking to a guy that sells Korean & Taiwanese machines (I know him well outside of this relationship so I know he isn't blowing smoke up my ass) he said containers have gone from about 2K to about 10K to ship.


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