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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Medical device manufacturing is one of the few maker industries left that still operates in a fantasy world.

    $1,000 for one bone screw, give me a break.

    Open the floodgates to 3rd world competition in medical manufacturing (they are closed, due to safety, FDA, quality, blah-blah) and you would start to see the prices of the products made in this industry nosedive, just like many other industries in the U.S. over the last 30 years.

    ToolCat
    Most medical devices are over engineered and have ridiculous tolerances, even where completely unnecessary, and that drives prices. I only have one medical customer, very small, wish I had more.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiTillIdie View Post
    Guy that can set up repeat jobs, start making minor program changes, rarely late, makes good parts, understands spindles need to be turning at all times, 18-20?
    Guy that can program a new part from 2d drawing, shows up on time, works hard, takes pride in his work 20-25?
    Add another $8-10/hr to those numbers and you're closer to reality.
    Good people cost money. And you better have good benefits too or you'll never have anyone decent even think of working for you.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Medical device manufacturing is one of the few maker industries left that still operates in a fantasy world.

    $1,000 for one bone screw, give me a break.

    Open the floodgates to 3rd world competition in medical manufacturing (they are closed, due to safety, FDA, quality, blah-blah) and you would start to see the prices of the products made in this industry nosedive, just like many other industries in the U.S. over the last 30 years.

    ToolCat
    I don't mean to single out this poster but this mindset I feel is a big problem, rather than bringing everyones standards up it seems everyone would rather bring everyone who's standards are higher down to a lower level.

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKretz View Post
    For a long time things have been stagnant. I am guessing they are going to start climbing as we run out of experienced people. Either that or everybody will buy robots.
    One of the nice things about some machine shops, you can't just throw a robot on it and expect the same results as an actual machinist. At least not yet.

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  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Payne View Post
    I don't mean to single out this poster but this mindset I feel is a big problem, rather than bringing everyones standards up it seems everyone would rather bring everyone who's standards are higher down to a lower level.
    From a business owners point of view it makes sense. The idea would be to keep expenses low, which means finding a candidate that is willing to work for what the company is willing to pay. Problem is it doesn't translate well in practice because not many skilled people are willing to work that low. It is all about realistic expectations and an understanding of the location one is working in.t

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    $20 an hour LOL.

    You realize that the government is paying way more than that for people to sit at home and play video games right? Your chance of hiring a young, unattached person at any price is near zero, especially for a labor job. In the rare instances where young people are working they prefer jobs that involve answering phones, doing paperwork, or just other very easy sit-down jobs where they can spend 80% of their time browsing the web and texting their friends.

    The only people I have been able to hire are family men that cannot pay for all the goodies that a wife and children want with just unemployment and other handouts. The last job I filled took me 3 months and I had to keep upping the salary until I found someone willing at the rate of $135,000 per year plus full health benefits. And not only that, but the guy was only looking because his previous employer retired and closed his shop.

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    QT:
    Year 1, $10.78
    Year 2, $12.50
    Year 3, $14.23
    Year 4, $16.17
    Journeyworker $21.56

    I think add about 5 bucks to each.
    $10 for the college or high school part-time worker that you may have to give a rider to work, or the retired guy just working for something to do.

    For 10 to 12 a good worker will walk at the first decent offer and leave you standing

  12. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Medical device manufacturing is one of the few maker industries left that still operates in a fantasy world.

    $1,000 for one bone screw, give me a break.

    Open the floodgates to 3rd world competition in medical manufacturing (they are closed, due to safety, FDA, quality, blah-blah) and you would start to see the prices of the products made in this industry nosedive, just like many other industries in the U.S. over the last 30 years.

    ToolCat

    So what I'm hearing is you're peanut butter and jealous?

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  14. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscpm View Post
    $20 an hour LOL.

    You realize that the government is paying way more than that for people to sit at home and play video games right? Your chance of hiring a young, unattached person at any price is near zero, especially for a labor job. In the rare instances where young people are working they prefer jobs that involve answering phones, doing paperwork, or just other very easy sit-down jobs where they can spend 80% of their time browsing the web and texting their friends.

    The only people I have been able to hire are family men that cannot pay for all the goodies that a wife and children want with just unemployment and other handouts. The last job I filled took me 3 months and I had to keep upping the salary until I found someone willing at the rate of $135,000 per year plus full health benefits. And not only that, but the guy was only looking because his previous employer retired and closed his shop.
    The federal weekly unemployment bonus expired on labor day, so unemployment pay went back to pre Covid levels, that took away $300 a week free money. I do believe bonus child credit payments and extra food stamps are still in effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CITIZEN F16 View Post
    The federal weekly unemployment bonus expired on labor day, so unemployment pay went back to pre Covid levels, that took away $300 a week free money. I do believe bonus child credit payments and extra food stamps are still in effect.
    How I heard that worked was the tax credit people normally would get, is distributed throughout the year and not in a lump sum at tax return time. This was from my brother in law who has 4 kids and is a business owner.

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    that took away $300 a week free money.

    When the USA is belly up we can borrow some money, and pay China to take it.

    North Korea has the right policy, If you don't work, then you don't eat
    and even if you do work, likely you still don't eat.

  17. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CITIZEN F16 View Post
    I do believe bonus child credit payments
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckg7442 View Post
    How I heard that worked was the tax credit people normally would get, is distributed throughout the year and not in a lump sum at tax return time.
    And how PO'd is everyone gonna be come tax time and folks find out they don't get their child tax credit(cuz they already got it and spent it)......................Are the idiots in charge gonna just give 'em a "2nd" child tax credit to keep the masses happy and dependent?

  18. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckg7442 View Post
    How I heard that worked was the tax credit people normally would get, is distributed throughout the year and not in a lump sum at tax return time. This was from my brother in law who has 4 kids and is a business owner.
    That's true, but it's only half of the amount because it went into effect in July. You will still see a similar credit again on 2021 returns* because the amount went from $2000 to $3600, meaning $300 per child per month for the back half of 2021, and another $1800 per child when filing for 2021.

    *I am not a tax lawyer, if you get yourself into trouble with the Feds don't come after me, etc. etc.

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  20. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Medical device manufacturing is one of the few maker industries left that still operates in a fantasy world.

    $1,000 for one bone screw, give me a break.

    Open the floodgates to 3rd world competition in medical manufacturing (they are closed, due to safety, FDA, quality, blah-blah) and you would start to see the prices of the products made in this industry nosedive, just like many other industries in the U.S. over the last 30 years.

    ToolCat
    Bone screws are expensive because they're complex! I have 8 of them at home from when I had a plate in my clavicle. The hardware for that was a pricy aspect of my surgery, and for good reason. It isn't like those are prismatic bone plates, they require custom fixtures and a lot of post finishing work. It isn't just medical. Aerospace is expensive. Mold and die is expensive, why? Because the parts are usually very complex and require a lot of time to get across the finish line and within spec.

    Anyways, machining is expensive! I did some custom steering uprights. ONE of them costs $2,500. That was our quote. The development time on getting a first article across the finish line was about 20 hours. That is 10-15 hours of programming and about 3-6 hours of machining and then a few more hours of reworking and debugging. Prototype/small batches of any article is going to be expensive. Economies of scale are very real. Bone screws aren't one offs but they also aren't making hundreds of millions each year....

    If you need 100 steering uprights, the price per article goes way down across the line because that 20 hour development cost is amortized across 100 units. Make that upright out of titanium and your development cost will likely double to $5000. $5000 for one little part?! Yea, because my programming time ain't free and the lights in the shop don't just power themselves for free. Our shop rate is $100/hr and that could probably go up for the complex parts like this. The horror!

    You got companies who have no problem dropping 5/6 figures on molds for injection molding. Some single parts in shops I have worked at are $50,000 or even double that. You want someone making $20/hr running parts that cost 6 figures?? It isn't like medical has some special reason that makes it expensive. It's just expensive because it can be and medical shops realize they can charge a lot for these components. Same with aerospace.

    MAYBE the business owners need to get better at quoting work because there is no reason you shouldn't be making money on work you take on. Customers need the parts. You can make the parts. Customer is beholden to you and your rates. If you can't pay your employees more then you need to charge more.

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  22. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckg7442 View Post
    One of the nice things about some machine shops, you can't just throw a robot on it and expect the same results as an actual machinist. At least not yet.
    Even if you could just "buy a robot, BOOM you're in business" you still need to have highly technical and experienced staff to stand up that robotic cell, program the jobs that feed the robotic cell, and someone who understands that whole cell operation like the back of their hand. Sure you get rid of the operator cost but your programming rate is arguably more expensive.

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  24. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    QT:
    Year 1, $10.78
    Year 2, $12.50
    Year 3, $14.23
    Year 4, $16.17
    Journeyworker $21.56

    I think add about 5 bucks to each.
    $10 for the college or high school part-time worker that you may have to give a rider to work, or the retired guy just working for something to do.

    For 10 to 12 a good worker will walk at the first decent offer and leave you standing
    Man, even if you add $5/hr for all of those, a Journeyman-level machinist should NOT be making only $26.56. You're expecting someone to devote 5 years of training to earn a mere $26/hour.

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  26. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    And how PO'd is everyone gonna be come tax time and folks find out they don't get their child tax credit(cuz they already got it and spent it)......................Are the idiots in charge gonna just give 'em a "2nd" child tax credit to keep the masses happy and dependent?
    How they spend their money, or waste it is not my problem. They are adults. They should be able to stand on their own two feet. I just shouldn't have to pay for them. Rabbit trail, I know, but I do agree with the earn your own keep crowd. It has literally worked the entire span of human existence.

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    Medical... get use to being sued many times per month. Part of the deal.

    Second, in some of it you can not change a single line in your G-code without submitting samples and a long approval process.
    This one surprised me much working with a place grinding dental burrs and drills. The code had to be locked and could only be edited by an act of God.

    Here in Michigan medical work on the shop floor does not pay better than other machining jobs. In fact many leave.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    ...MAYBE the business owners need to get better at quoting work because there is no reason you shouldn't be making money on work you take on. Customers need the parts. You can make the parts. Customer is beholden to you and your rates. If you can't pay your employees more then you need to charge more.
    I think you should stick a couple machines in your garage, try quoting, and then get back to us.

    It's not just your shop and the customer. It's your shop, all the other shops on the planet, and your customer. Customer doenst always go low bid, but the awards will be in the bottom 1/3rd, unless it's something extremely hard to source and they dont trust anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside Fab View Post
    I think you should stick a couple machines in your garage, try quoting, and then get back to us.

    It's not just your shop and the customer. It's your shop, all the other shops on the planet, and your customer. Customer doenst always go low bid, but the awards will be in the bottom 1/3rd, unless it's something extremely hard to source and they dont trust anyone else.
    It has been a thought of mine for awhile. There is a reason I haven't done it. Mainly I just don't have the capital. I know there are many successful entrepreneurs who have started out in this same way, though. I have met a lot of them. But we don't need to go into a discussion on global economic trade policies necessarily.

    There was another comment earlier in the thread that was basically saying "I wonder if these owners need to look at the viability of their business if they cannot afford it" and I would have to agree with that. Just like many of the small businesses (non mfg) out there need to look at their viability as a business to see if their business model can sustain the level of labor they need to keep the business functioning. A non mfg trinket shop might necessarily need to raise their prices across the board over time. It happens all the time! The big players are doing it in food - shrinkflation. You buy a bag of chips that used to have 12oz at $3. Now they are selling a 10oz bag of chips for $3. Same price, lower cost of goods. It is shady but it is happening.

    If a company is say, quoting jobs at a shop rate of $75, is there any reason that that shop could not begin ramping up their shop rate over a period of say, 6 months or a year? Go from 75, 78, 83, 85? In a period of 6 months that owner is generating 13% more revenue by increasing their shop rate a small amount.

    Look, I don't have all the answers and I certainly this is an unprecedented time in the markets as a whole. I am not an MBA. Labor is shifting and the economy is moving under foot every day. But one thing I am certain of - wages are not going to go down. Wages are going to continue trending up from here until the end of time, as they always have done. The shrewd business owner will need to adapt to those changing conditions if they expect to sustain the business. Does that mean investing in automation? Probably yes. Investing in modern technologies? Definitely yes.

    The OP said that he wasted 3 fucking weeks of production which was all scrap because of a poor hiring decision. The general consensus across the board here is that he/she need to pay more for talent. Which one is more expensive...paying a fair wage for talent, or constantly scrapping weeks of production because you can't trust your guys? I don't want to shit all over OP but he/she posted it in a public forum. For what reason was 3 weeks of parts not inspected before the 3 week mark?? That goes back to the running of a business and that type of scrapping is not a sustainable business model.

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