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  1. #21
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    Why are people in shops paid salary? Its not hard to keep up with hours in this setting. From what I've seen, one side or the other always feels like they aren't being treated fairly.

    If the op2 has been busting out working weekends constantly, regardless of the legal situation, a good employer should take care of him at least in the short term. Just because stuff is going on doesn't mean our responsibilities to our loyal employees disappear. Until you lay them off, they are your responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    Sorry Mr.Guru I have to disagree. 'Salaried'is sold as 'you are better than those hourly-paid who are really just children(which is why you supervise them).' 'Yes they end up with more money than you because of overtime. But remember when times are tough you will still get paid.' Well that time is here.


    You missed the point of the question in the first place. After I have used my vacation time what is my status? Am I still beholden to my employer or not?
    Salary is "sold"? If that is the way you feel about it or have been treated, you went to work for the wrong employer. That is a decision that you made. You can quit any time you like . . . and your employer is obligated to pay you up to the day you quit plus any unused Vacation / PTO time you have accrued.

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    Being exempt works both ways.

    Being hourly means that you are paid when you work and not when you don't. Need time off to go to the doctor? No pay. Need to got to the latrine? Don't spend too much time powdering your nose. Late for work? Pay is docked or possibly discharged. Overtime? Time and a half, double time or whatever is agreed to. If you are part of a union, then there is negotiated time for personal business, break time and such. You start at a certain time, expected to be working at you job location until quitting time.

    Exempt means you are free from the wage-hourly laws. Your wages and compensation are negotiated between you and the company. Need some personal time off to run some errands usually not a problem. Your work schedule is usually relaxed, just so long as you get the work done. There is no charge to your salary for these personal times. On the other hand, a project gets behind schedule or something comes up not planned for, "casual time" is expected and without additional pay. Details are between you and the company.

    When the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market years ago there was a huge impact on profitability of the department I worked, Industrial Motor Control. I started out working scads of OT but when I explained to my supervisor that this was beyond normal casual OT, he agree to OT pay.

    If you are not union and having problems with you employer, either accept your lot or change jobs. Job actions against an employer are usually hard to win and the legal action can get you black balled.

    When it is all said and done, it is really what relationship you have with your employer and supervisor. Remember that most larger companies have employee handbooks that spell out the rules for non-unions workers. There are legal documents for both you and the employer.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    From department of labor website:

    If the employee is ready, willing and able to work, deductions may not be made for time when work is not available.

    He either pays you now, or pays back wages for all the unpaid overtime you have worked the past.

    CarlBoyd

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    Department of Labor rule for salaried workers.

    Highlights of the Final Rule on Overtime Eligibility for White Collar Employees | U.S. Department of Labor

    Q. What is “overtime”?

    Unless specifically exempted, employees covered by the FLSA must receive pay for hours worked in excess of 40 in a workweek at a rate not less than one and one-half their regular rate of pay. This rate is referred to as “overtime” pay.

    Q. What determines if an employee falls within one of the exemptions?

    To qualify for an exemption in this rule an employee generally must:

    be salaried, meaning that they are paid a predetermined and fixed salary that is not subject to reduction because of variations in the quality or quantity of work performed (the “salary basis test”);
    be paid at least a specified weekly salary level, which is $684 per week (the equivalent of $35,568 annually for a full-year worker) under this final rule (the “salary level test”); and
    primarily perform executive, administrative, or professional duties, as defined in the Department’s regulations (the “duties test”).


    Unless there is/was a special arrangement between the two parties, you will get your rate of pay regardless of lack of work or material. Further you will only get the negotiated salary regardless of overtime expended.

    Tom

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    Thanks for the input Mr Degenhart and Boyd(and everyone else).

    I assume that if things go belly up,I will take paid vacation and then after that I am a free agent without any obligations to the current employer.

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    Sorry to be rough.
    These question are asked at interview time and before you accept the sign on bonus. Know what you sign up for.
    Salary is not a guaranteed forever contract and you are free to leave anytime.
    When the hours get long and hard it is not unusual for hourly people to make more.
    Some salary jobs comp for overtime in various ways. It may be time and half, straight time, extra comp days or nothing at all.
    The company can also change this at will if in your employment contract. BTDT.
    Normally a sign on bonus or paid schooling or such may have a subtraction if you leave early. Not the usual case if they terminate you (except for gross misconduct and such called out in the papers you sign)
    In the case of a layoff and you take other employment you only owe it if they call you back and you say no.

    In the case of a temporary cut back you are most likely just the same as an hourly employee. BTDT one too.
    Often salary is a supervisor position in which case you can not be part or the union as you are considered management.
    "Managers and supervisors are also not protected by the NLRA, and cannot join unions or be part of the bargaining unit."

    Ask questions when you sign on the dotted line. Brutal yes, beaten by the rules and did not like it yes, but I had a choice and took it.
    Everyone is looking at a hit here. That plain sucks.

    I think many small business owners will go as long as possible without a paycheck to keep employees on staff.
    No real work to be done but, clean, maintenance, whatever I can find. The lowest paid on your staff are going to be in trouble first as they live paycheck to paycheck.

    As a add on on call me names all day long Dualkit, you have never worked for me in a union or non-union shop. I do give shit. My people, my team are everything.
    Without them I am dead. The wife bitches when in hard times that I give the shirt off my back when I have none to wear and she is wrong to complain.
    I do understand the view but you poke at my honor sir.
    Bob

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    One of the tests the government uses to validate salaried is if the person has some control over the hours they work. Fast food places among others were calling half the people managers to avoid any ot and still controlling their hours.

    Our plant has gotten better the last few years, but it used to mean the supervisors putting in at least an extra day a week.

    I like making things and do not like that kind of stress so I stayed out of that game.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    'Salaried'is sold as 'you are better than those hourly-paid who are really just children(which is why you supervise them)
    If this is what they "sold", then apparently you "bought" it. Makes me lean more towards the harsh sentiment of MG's original reply if that's your thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    Thanks for the input Mr Degenhart and Boyd(and everyone else).

    I assume that if things go belly up,I will take paid vacation and then after that I am a free agent without any obligations to the current employer.
    Being a "free agent" six months from now is probably a worse position to be in than employed burger flipper...

    I would think hard before leaving any employment for any reason right now. Better to feel mistreated by someone who starts paying you again, than to be out there looking for a job with millions of other unemployed.

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    Around here, Walmart and Kroger food stores are hiring like I have never seen before. Coronavirus concerns have a lot of older folks sheltering in place at home and others are forbidden to come to work the moment they have a sniffle . . . other vocational opportunities not so much.

    I think Washington State has the highest number of deaths so far and was one of the first states to shut down restaurants, bars, fitness centers, barbers, etc. In those cases the business owners had no choice but to lay people off immediately. Every state in the union will experience this within the next month.

    We will do our best to stay in business but it will be tight and no one will emerge without some pain and sacrifice. We do this so that the whole team can emerge from this mess with a job doing something we enjoy doing for the benefit of our customers, our suppliers, and for our team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    it will be tight and no one will emerge without some pain and sacrifice.
    That pain and sacrifice is going to grow with the crazy curve.
    Hope you can keep the team going.
    Best of luck to you as anyone I've had contact with seems dedicated. Seems you have a good staff and you are a good boss.
    No ass and penny kissing as I've lost money on you, not a problem, no whines here.
    We do need so many more like you.
    We try to help each other. Employee, suppliers, everyone. We try. That we carry to our graves.
    The times are insane, give.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    Hello All

    I posted this message on LinkedIn. No response!
    Perhaps someone here could give some input.

    Salaried employee status
    My employer sent an email saying that if there was a shortage of work I(and others) would have to take vacation time to make up pay.
    Question 1: I thought salaried employees were paid regardless. I work weekends without compensation. What am I missing? Loyalty only works one way!!
    Question 2: When I run out of leave time am I free to look for new work or am I expected to starve?
    Question 3: Will I owe the company for any 'sign-on incentives' that have not expired if I start another job?
    Vacation/PTO rules in lieu of paid wages during mandated time off is almost always in the employment contract you signed or alternatively posted in HR manuals or publications listed in the employment contract.

    1. You are paid by your pay period; for salary normally biweekly or monthly. Though some companies might pay salaried employees straight time for overtime or have comp time that's not a requirement. They might offer those for part of the year but can stop at any time. When I was involved in it 6 minutes (0.1 hour) attendance per day was required for a full day's pay. This "weekly" rule must be something new.

    2. You can take a new position immediately/at any time and the company is required to pay any accrued vacation/PTO.

    3. The employment contract or referenced items dictate whether you owe back any hiring bonus, etc. Usually some time period like 6-12-18 months employment offsets the bonus.

    Good luck, we're all going to need it.

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    Thanks for all the responses - both informative and insulting.
    I have not left my current job, there have been no cutbacks yet.

    These are the responses I was expecting to get.

    Question 1: I thought salaried employees were paid regardless. I work weekends without compensation. What am I missing? Loyalty only works one way!!

    Answer: EITHER - You are correct, you should continue to be paid until you are dismissed/company closes and you are not liable for incentive reimbursement.
    OR - Sorry salaried has no benefits over hourly-paid -Ha!Ha!Ha!You dim-wit!


    Question 2: When I run out of leave time am I free to look for new work or am I expected to starve?
    EITHER - You are now unemployed and have no accountability to your employer.
    OR - until your employer decides to dismiss you, you are still accountable to him(paid or not).


    Question 3: Will I owe the company for any 'sign-on incentives' that have not expired if I start another job?
    YES - if you resign
    NO - if you are dismissed because of no work/business bankruptcy.

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    Do you pay unemployment insurance ?

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    They want to use the vacation time because that had to be banked any way
    same with sick leave.
    it's a way to buy some time, and hopefully ride things out.

  18. #36
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    Before conceding to any predispositions, it's necessary to very thoroughly read the federal employment definitions and rules. There is salary, and wage. In salary, there is Exempt, and Non-Exempt. One cannot determine to what circumstances they're bound, without knowing wether they're in one category or another. My circumstance, although not affected by this maelstrom, is questionable between Salary Exempt, and Salary Non-Exempt, and there is very CLEARLY a difference in the two with regard to 'additional compensation' for additional hours worked. A company would LIKE to identify all salaried employees as NON Exempt, because 'Exemption' means they are not required to compensate for extended work hours or time away from home. Many will argue that the simple fact of salary means you work whatever hours they require, this is NOT true- they specify a minimum, and base their compensation 'rate' based on that minimum... and if you work in that minimum, or are away from home, compensation for that (either in paid time off, or additional pay) is due.

    In order for an employee to be identified as EXEMPT, there are certain necessary identifiers, any of which will disqualify them from being 'Non Exempt'. Here are some, but not 'all' of the earmarks:
    Exempt employees are NOT be in the direct production path of goods or services.
    Exempt employees have the power to hire and fire.
    Exempt employees have the authority to purchase materials and services.
    Exempt employees are NOT required to keep a time log of their work hours, with exception of logging billable hours to accounts.

    Employees that fall under recorded hours (even if salaried) are NON-exempt.
    Employees who's positions do not include hiring, firing, or materials purchase and contracting authority are NON-exempt.

    All this being the case, just because you fall under any particular classification of Fair Labor Standards Act, does not mean an employer is savvy, wise, or just, and as a result, the policies they adopt might not be legal.

    Furthermore, if they aren't solvent enough to 'ride out' this circumstance, they won't have fiscal resources regardless of wether you're right or wrong... so engaging in a legal battle will result in BOTH of you losing under the 'law of blood and turnips'.

    IMO, any company who's leadership chooses to take such a stance, is unwise, because they're telling you to surrender your accrued PTO under a circumstance where they would have to pay you anyway... so it's not like it makes any difference to their bottom line, it simply serves as an insult to their human resources.

    Right now, foolish people are doing foolish things. My recommendation is to avoid being 'at odds' about anything, and do whatever you can to ride it out, and look for a silver lining in every cloud. If you're looking to this circumstance as a 'way out' of a bad employment environment, then there's probably already an underlying circumstance, and as long as you're not working for them under a contract agreement, you really don't need a 'reason'. This falls under the employment terminology of 'at will'... which means they have no obligation to justify termination, but it also means you have no obligation to maintain your employment status with them... if a better opportunity comes up, there's no 'free agent status' necessary.

    Hopefully this brings a little more clarity... and I hope your circumstances stabilize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    They want to use the vacation time because that had to be banked any way
    same with sick leave.
    it's a way to buy some time, and hopefully ride things out.
    Vacation time is something you schedule at your convenience to do what you want.

    If your company lumps vacation and sick into a "Paid Time Off" total, then they might have legs to call it 'sick time'. Or, 'avoidance of sick' time, as it were.

    In either case, if the company goes under, the long-term definition doesn't matter.

    In the short term, if you're employed by them but they're shut down, try to arrange to keep your job for possible comebacks and health coverage. Even when you're off work with them, you could still get a second job stocking grocery shelves or whatever... which you can quit at any time if your primary company calls you back.

    Try to find a copy of your employee manual, which will govern the details.

    Worst case would be an informal, back-of-the-envelope tally of 'comp time' that would evaporate when the shit hits the fan.

    This won't be fun.

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  22. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    After I have used my vacation time what is my status? Am I still beholden to my employer or not?

    Here is a wake up call if you are not quite aware.

    Large and small companies that depend on revenue from their customers are in a predicament. Their customers may have stalled paying bills seeing a pandemic on the horizon. Or they took heed in the warnings, closing up shop for now.
    In either case the company is not seeing payment for that work till after this blows over...

    Anyone have a Crystal ball and care to put a date on when this is over? I've heard 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or more months.

    Even if we come out the other side...is your customer going to stroll into work and cut you a check? Are they going to try and open their doors and hope people still want what they offered...can they get the raw materials...

    Will they have employees coming back to work, did they make it though? did they find work elsewhere.


    I originally closed up on Friday after being told to by our Governor, I let my guys go...asked them to keep in touch.
    Spoke with a couple other shops I work with and we decided we are essential based on some of our customers. So I called the guys back if they are willing. I have two, maybe three customers out of many saying they have more work then I can handle...hopefully they can pay for it as the rest of the customers have recordings stating they are closed due to the Coronavirus.

    So a long way to get to...speak with your employer. Your worried about giving up vacation or vacation pay and they may be worried about a lifetimes work going under.

    Not to mention letting people go is the worst thing about having a business. I cannot think of too many people that planed for a pandemic that shuts EVERYTHING down for multiple months.

    Stress in new magnitudes

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    Thanks for the input Mr Degenhart and Boyd(and everyone else).

    I assume that if things go belly up,I will take paid vacation and then after that I am a free agent without any obligations to the current employer.
    Did you sign some kind of contract to stay when you got hired? If so what was it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwelo62 View Post
    Hello All

    I posted this message on LinkedIn. No response!
    Perhaps someone here could give some input.

    Salaried employee status
    My employer sent an email saying that if there was a shortage of work I(and others) would have to take vacation time to make up pay.
    Question 1: I thought salaried employees were paid regardless. I work weekends without compensation. What am I missing? Loyalty only works one way!!
    Question 2: When I run out of leave time am I free to look for new work or am I expected to starve?
    Question 3: Will I owe the company for any 'sign-on incentives' that have not expired if I start another job?
    Your profile says you're in Georgia and a quick google search says that's an at-will state. Unless you have a contract they can fire you at the end of the day or you can quit at the end of the day. Loyalty has nothing to do with it.

    You seem to feel an employer owes you a perpetual paycheck because you worked a few weekends. Good luck with that.


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