Running 240 3ph tools in a 208 3ph facility ? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Europe et al work directly off two of the 3-Phase legs @ 230-250 VAC for residences, but do not ordinarily provide 120 VAC service at a wall outlet.


    Not so Bill. In Germany and most of at least the Netherlands, all 3 phases are delivered to the homes. Single leg voltage is a nominal 230 volts to Neutral. Leg to leg is now 400 Volts nominal (Used to be 380, but a compromise was made with the UK for commonality).

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Not so Bill. In Germany and most of at least the Netherlands, all 3 phases are delivered to the homes. Single leg voltage is a nominal 230 volts to Neutral. Leg to leg is now 400 Volts nominal (Used to be 380, but a compromise was made with the UK for commonality).
    Keeping in mind that Europe - UK with less War Two damage especially - doesn't tear-down and rebuild as often as the USA, "last few meters" are older, on average, so not all that commonly INTO the home, that 380/400. Just closer-too.

    EX: NOTHING in our HKG home - (Kornhill, built 1987) - uses the 3-Phase on the main breaker. All loads are 230 V, one leg to Neutral, balanced off in a French-made Schneider panel to 1-P each 20 A max, (our RARE full-sized US made oven..) most are 15A or less.

    "Full" 3-Phase is right in the utility closet across the hall, each floor, HKG flats - or at the kerb, UK single-family residences, comparable age and older. Often MUCH older.

    Main barrier to easy use of 3-Phase machinery, "smallholder" shop, isn't so much a costly upgrade over a great distance [1], but that there is a lot less OF it, KW / Ampacity power-wise than the profligate USA wires for.

    Essentially the entire world is far more frugal than US practice, Copper consumption or energy over it, either one.

    [1]A mate of mine had a largish tract with a home, shop, sawmill, several guest cottages, wanted to add a 3-P wood planer. Utility could give him multiple 200A even 400 A 240 VAC split-phase, but the nearest 3-P point was 9 miles one direction, 12 miles, the other way and $25,000-plus 1970-odd US dollar quote, non-recurring to get it to him.

    Needless to say, with no other 3-P loads to justify an RPC, we changed the 5 HP motor to 1-P instead!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Keeping in mind that Europe - UK with less War Two damage especially - doesn't tear-down and rebuild as often as the USA, "last few meters" are older, on average, so not all that commonly INTO the home, that 380/400. Just closer-too.

    EX: NOTHING in our HKG home - (Kornhill, built 1987) - uses the 3-Phase on the main breaker. All loads are 230 V, one leg to Neutral, balanced off in a French-made Schneider panel to 1-P each 20 A max, (our RARE full-sized US made oven..) most are 15A or less.

    "Full" 3-Phase is right in the utility closet across the hall, each floor, HKG flats - or at the kerb, UK single-family residences, comparable age and older. Often MUCH older.

    Main barrier to easy use of 3-Phase machinery, "smallholder" shop, isn't so much a costly upgrade over a great distance [1], but that there is a lot less OF it, KW / Ampacity power-wise than the profligate USA wires for.

    Essentially the entire world is far more frugal than US practice, Copper consumption or energy over it, either one.

    [1]A mate of mine had a largish tract with a home, shop, sawmill, several guest cottages, wanted to add a 3-P wood planer. Utility could give him multiple 200A even 400 A 240 VAC split-phase, but the nearest 3-P point was 9 miles one direction, 12 miles, the other way and $25,000-plus 1970-odd US dollar quote, non-recurring to get it to him.

    Needless to say, with no other 3-P loads to justify an RPC, we changed the 5 HP motor to 1-P instead!
    I've got 415V 3 phase to my house in Sydney and my place in Tasmania. It's not exactly common but it's certainly not rare.

    The 3 phase wire is generally on the street, you just have to pay for the hookup.

    PDW

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I've got 415V 3 phase to my house in Sydney and my place in Tasmania. It's not exactly common but it's certainly not rare.

    The 3 phase wire is generally on the street, you just have to pay for the hookup.

    PDW
    As said, and more than once, it is a sane system we could only WISH had been adopted, lower-48 as often as 120-208 // 240-416 Wye was on MIL gen sets.

    ONE extra conductor, TRIPLE the number of phases, but usually smaller conductors by one size, each power-carrying leg, at the least.

    Also saner, simpler, smoother, cooler-running, inherently-reversible, yet lighter and more durable motors, no caps nor starter winding switches to perish. Better balanced cookers, heaters. Lesser struggle & longer lives as to reefer and HVAC compressors and blowers that deal with frequent starting.

    What's not to like? Costlier switchgear & breakers? Only where those were not cheap nor simple to begin with.

    Among our "mixed blessings", lesser-lethality split-phase, last few meters?

    Plan as we think we have, far too many of our 120 VAC loads end-up active, same time, on the same damned leg - just not the same damned leg at night as we were hammering of a morning or at mid-day. Were it not for heavier loads of water-heating, HVAC, clothes dryers, primary cookers and ovens, shop machinery on 240, whole 120V house of cards would fall on its nose.

    Lybarger's Corollary to Sod's Law. "All else being equal? You lose!"


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  6. #25
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    I had some machines that absolutely required 230V 3 phase, so in my old building with 208 from the street we had to build a whole 230V supply with buck-boosts.

    Now everything gets fed from the buss bars at 480. Some of the subpanels get fed from a wye transformer and some of them get fed from a delta transformer.

    I probably still have the buck boost transformers up in storage somewhere. If you do move and want to buy them off me for cheap send me a PM.

  7. #26
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    If your really concerned, by a whole shop step up xformer and "pump it up" to 240 vac:
    YouTube


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