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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by antique lathe View Post
    I am not sticking up for the guy, just want to make an observation. Years ago in the shop where my dad worked. They required steel toe boots. I remember my dad telling me about guys losing there toes. When something heavy falls, the steel toe acts like a anvil and cuts the toes off. I do not ware steel toed boots. Yes, I have had things fall on me. But when I did have to go to the hospital. The nurse and doctor said it was a good thing I did not have steel toed boots on.
    It is better to have a smashed foot, then have no toes. They said it makes it very hard to walk without toes. They balance your body. I know OSHA has alot of rules. But some need to be a personal choice.
    I have heard this more than once.

    Shoes aside, his shop attitude alone would be enough for me to get rid of him. He could really spoil the atmosphere in there.

    IMO it would be better to train someone who has aptitude and a good attitude. Single mothers are often good for that.

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    I'm sporting some new red wings right now. Damn I hate breaking in New boots

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydude View Post
    Its not that he doesnt have boots, he just doesn't want to wear them out of comfort. We haven't needed the "boot allowance" for a long time as most people we hire have this already. We provide, glasses, hearing aids, and uniforms (different types from the lab coat style to the coverall).

    We are pretty competitive, we'll pay upwards to 35/hr plus the standard bonuses and benefits like coverage for health care, and vacation pay.
    We are also a pretty small shop with a bit of flexible work time, we'll allow guys to come in 10-20mins late and not be bothered by it.

    For the non-experienced machinists we'll pay from 17 to xxx with aggressive pay raises if they pick up the skills fast. We give one on one time training if the guy is willing to learn.
    So far, everyone wants to "monkey push the green button". lame.
    "Upwards" to 35 bucks? No boot allowance? 17 bucks an hour to start with free promises? Everyone needs a boot allowance in a machine shop, a pair lasts maybe 6 months at best and you wont cover one pair a year? Your "non experienced" wage was what was being offered 10 years ago, what are you paying this guy an hour?

    Try the boot allowance, you might be surprised.

    His bad attitude is no excuse, that alone is grounds to let him go. But if you want to try to turn him around in his ways and keep him, the carrot beats the stick everytime in Alberta, especially if your having trouble attracting employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hickstick_10 View Post
    "Upwards" to 35 bucks? No boot allowance? 17 bucks an hour to start with free promises? Everyone needs a boot allowance in a machine shop, a pair lasts maybe 6 months at best and you wont cover one pair a year? Your "non experienced" wage was what was being offered 10 years ago, what are you paying this guy an hour?

    Try the boot allowance, you might be surprised.
    Hi, thanks for the reply. I think you missed a point here. I said he ALREADY has boots. He doesn't want to wear them. Period.

    Also with regards to pay, we pay on a skill based pay wage. So if the machinist can't even dial a piece in or even know his feeds and speeds, i'm not paying the guy 35 bucks to hold his hand. When I mean 17 bucks and hour to start its a guy who has never worked on a machine before and needs to learn the trade. I dont know how machine shops work in BC but it's not how it is like in Alberta. We dont just give a guy money because he "should" get it - prove the skill and the pay comes - that's how we've been doing it for years.

    And upwards to 35 is fairly competitive, considering most machinists I have interviewed are making only 25 - 30/hr. And I'll be honest. i have offered a guy 40/hr if he's worth it.

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    nothing a 5 lb hammer to alternating big toes first thing in the morning won't cure....

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    HappyDude, put an ad in Québec Kijiji and I'll bet you get some good candidates
    in their mid twenties that are single and want to try something abroad.
    If I were to do it over again that's the kind of deal I would of liked.
    As for steel caps I am wearing some Terra safety shoes made in NFLD.
    They are some type of Kevlar and not steel, but are CSA.
    I think the model is Carter, I used to wear the all steel Golf before :
    Terra Footwear > Home

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    Thanks laurentian,
    I think i might. Its just such a risk taking on these the kids from abroad.

    So far everyone here wants a "monkey pushes the green button" job, and not the "cool kids programming the robot" job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydude View Post
    Hi, thanks for the reply. I think you missed a point here. I said he ALREADY has boots. He doesn't want to wear them. Period.

    Also with regards to pay, we pay on a skill based pay wage. So if the machinist can't even dial a piece in or even know his feeds and speeds, i'm not paying the guy 35 bucks to hold his hand. When I mean 17 bucks and hour to start its a guy who has never worked on a machine before and needs to learn the trade. I dont know how machine shops work in BC but it's not how it is like in Alberta. We dont just give a guy money because he "should" get it - prove the skill and the pay comes - that's how we've been doing it for years.

    And upwards to 35 is fairly competitive, considering most machinists I have interviewed are making only 25 - 30/hr. And I'll be honest. i have offered a guy 40/hr if he's worth it.
    Maybe Im not being clear, those boots cost him money, and it seems that getting a boot allowance out of you is like drawing a pint of blood. I just moved from Edmonton after spending more then a decade in Alberta, my comments on your wages being out of date are plenty valid. 17 dollars an hour is what they paid complete greenhorns way back then.

    Upwards to means up to 35 bucks, most descent shops are proud of what they pay their employees and dont try to make the payscale hazy, also dont need to justify what they're paying. What is this bootless guy making an hour? Is he a journeyman?

    Guys aren't going to darken your doorstep because you "feel" your paying a competitive wage. But enough about your shortage of guys to find, I've said enough, back to the boots.

    I wont harp on this anymore, but its a cheap experiment to ask the guy what it would cost for a pair of workboots he thinks would be comfortable. If he plain says "I ain't wearing ANY boots, I dont care what kind" then fire the guy, he's probably waiting to loose a toe and sue you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hickstick_10 View Post
    Maybe Im not being clear, those boots cost him money, and it seems that getting a boot allowance out of you is like drawing a pint of blood. I just moved from Edmonton after spending a decade in Alberta, my comments on your wages being out of date are plenty valid. 17 dollars an hour is what they paid complete greenhorns way back then.

    Upwards means "anything up to", most descent shops are proud of what they pay their employees and dont try to make the payscale hazy. What is this bootless guy making an hour? Is he a journeyman?

    Guys aren't going to darken your doorstep because you "feel" your paying a competitive wage.
    The payscale isnt hazy. It's based on skill. We started off the bootless guy at 25/hr, since he has journeyman, but the guy doesnt know how to thread a stubacme thread. Wait, lemme guess I should be paying him 30/hr so i can teach him.

    If a machinist can do the job and is worth the money, there's no limit to what he can make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydude View Post
    The payscale isnt hazy. It's based on skill. We started off the bootless guy at 25/hr, since he has journeyman, but the guy doesnt know how to thread a stubacme thread. Wait, lemme guess I should be paying him 30/hr so i can teach him.

    If a machinist can do the job and is worth the money, there's no limit to what he can make.
    Pay peanuts, get monkeys. And you're right, your about 5 bucks low on a "low" journeyman rate.

    Can he thread at all?

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    No he cannot thread.
    He also does not know how to center, does not read blue prints properly and cannot rough out pieces in the correct order.

    I dont know how he got his ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydude View Post
    I dont know how he got his ticket.
    Know how many times I asked myself that during the great migration from the East we had in 2005? I think I saw half of Windsor hired and fired that year. , bootless sounds just like a guy who claimed to be "The best machinist in PEI" I knew, same mannerisms to the T.

    If he's that bad and incompetent, I'd forget about the boots and let him go, you're not going to get much out of him and he'l just quit anyways when something better comes along. There is no bargain in a 25$ an hour journeyman. start fresh with someone else.

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    Default Steel Toes and Metatarsal Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by antique lathe View Post
    I am not sticking up for the guy, just want to make an observation. Years ago in the shop where my dad worked. They required steel toe boots. I remember my dad telling me about guys losing there toes. When something heavy falls, the steel toe acts like a anvil and cuts the toes off. I do not ware steel toed boots. Yes, I have had things fall on me. But when I did have to go to the hospital. The nurse and doctor said it was a good thing I did not have steel toed boots on.
    It is better to have a smashed foot, then have no toes. They said it makes it very hard to walk without toes. They balance your body. I know OSHA has alot of rules. But some need to be a personal choice.
    Steel toes are for protecting toes from sub 50# weighs and stubbing accidents. If you're around REALLY heavy falling objects, then steel metatarsal guards are required. I wish doctors would stick to what they're supposed to know...
    Me, all my shoes/boots are steel toes. I have metatarsal guards when moving about heavy objects...like when we replace deck plates.


    Also, anyone thinking that this new employee might need to do an unannounced UA? Had an employee very similar to this one...ended up finding he was a meth head. Ya never know.

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  22. #54
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    Yikes meth head!

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydude View Post
    Its not that he doesnt have boots, he just doesn't want to wear them out of comfort. We haven't needed the "boot allowance" for a long time as most people we hire have this already. We provide, glasses, hearing aids, and uniforms (different types from the lab coat style to the coverall).

    We are pretty competitive, we'll pay upwards to 35/hr plus the standard bonuses and benefits like coverage for health care, and vacation pay.
    We are also a pretty small shop with a bit of flexible work time, we'll allow guys to come in 10-20mins late and not be bothered by it.

    For the non-experienced machinists we'll pay from 17 to xxx with aggressive pay raises if they pick up the skills fast. We give one on one time training if the guy is willing to learn.
    So far, everyone wants to "monkey push the green button". lame.
    Sounds like It could be a decent gig........not meaning to be a dick about it, but has anyone "come up through the ranks"?......the only reason I mention it is that if no one has done it then maybe employees believe it is unattainable. I worked for a guy that promised the world but never delivered. Without clearly defined steps in the process that the employee needs to accomplish and steps the employer then needs to provide........then it becomes only wishful thinking to the employee. Maybe you already have it laid out clearly.....but "showcasing" someone who started at $17 an hour, then worked the sytem to gain skills and now makes $30+ an hour should motivate people to not want to push the green button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentian View Post
    HappyDude, put an ad in Québec Kijiji and I'll bet you get some good candidates
    in their mid twenties that are single and want to try something abroad.
    I've seen this done and its always resulted in mixed results at best. For every 10 you hire you loose about 8 (3 go home, 3 quit within a couple weeks and 2 get fired), the other 2 are usually too dumb and useless to get a better job, as the places that practice this type of hiring tend to have a bad name locally. As far as I can tell Ontario is the worst, its almost like it has some physical pull on its wayward inhabitants.

    Some of my favourites (I wasn't doing the hiring at this place), these are all seperate events and individuals (all hired from anywhere including and east of Ontario). I stayed for 10 months and before getting out of this dive.

    1. One guy left out the fact he was missing an arm.
    2. When asked what brings him to Alberta, a new machinist flatly stated "To get off of blow"
    3. Poor guy shows up and his wife left him for the welder within a month, he dissapears for 2 weeks and shows up to work (he was in the psych ward) and promptly bites his tongue off in the lunch room, bad meds I guess.
    4. One man was such an alcoholic that he was leaving his empties under his workbench, he was fired the second time he did this after a warning.
    5. Man missed 2 months of work for an assault charge, for beating his wife with an extention cord.
    6. This particular shop payed a 2000 dollar moving allowance in 2004, one guy accepted a job, showed up to work, machined one part and collected his moving allowance at the end of the day, promptly went back to Ontario (he got a ride with a buddy who had quit).
    7. Man was layed off for getting caught snorting cocaine off his steering wheel at lunch break
    8. The sawboy knocked up the one girl machinist then dissapeared without a trace, this must have been on the girls mind when she lost the first joint of her pointer finger in a Haas.
    9. New nightshift man never used a lathe with camlocks, caught him in the morning trying to sledgehammer a chuck off an imaginary thread, fired on sight.

    All this in a period of 10 months, all sight unseen hires from eastern Canada after a phone interview. Happydude is very correct in saying its a huge risk to hire people from out of province. Im not knocking the people or the area, only telling you what a huge risk it is to bring in a mail order employee.

    Theres far bigger problems if a shop cant attract local talent anyways. Or at least get people to have some sort of sitdown interview.

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    The guy comes to you with a sad story, looking for a job. In short order he gets into it with the office help and refuses to wear safety shoes. Next he will decide that he doesn't like wearing safety glasses. An after that, who know what.

    To me, it seems like he as nothing (or little) to offer in skills, nothing to offer in attitude and is trying to tell you how to run your company after working for you for just a short time.

    He is what I classify as a "special person." Special people don't have to follow rules like other people, because they know something that mortal men have no clue about. Without a doubt he will poison the work environment and cause you nothing but trouble. I don't know the laws in Canada, or even other states in the US, but in Jersey he could get hurt in your shop because he wasn't wearing proper safety equipment (shoes, glasses, etc) and successfully sue you.

    I'd walk up to him tomorrow and tell him if he doesn't go home and get his safety shoes, he's fired.

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    Sounds to me like boots are the least of your problems.

    Two weeks and he has attitude issues with coworkers? That is a much bigger concern.

    If he had a serious amount of talent? That is something that MIGHT be overlooked or dealt with. OK, not overlooked, but at least dealt with.

    I think your biggest issue is you, where you cant see the problems dead in front of you and cant seem to deal with them directly. I have worked with bad bosses that would have dealt with this better and faster. Thats not saying I know what to do with Bootless, I am not a boss. I do know you are dragging your feet with this issue for some reason and dont want to face it. Is it too difficult to have a short discussion with him on his general shop attitude and safety practices? And if he dont change in the prescribed time follow up with written warning, then time off?

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    I'm trying to figure out why you haven't fired him already. (Or "let him go," if you want to make it sound nicer.) You are worried about finding a skilled replacement -- but from what you are saying, you don't HAVE a skilled worker now. You have a major problem that is working up to a disaster.

    I don't know enough about the wages in Alberta to sort through the comments, but I would say the questions/criticism you have gotten above on that point, or on offering a boot voucher, are besides the point here. Yes, you may need to review your wage scale and be sure you are on the right track, but the impression I am getting is that you have looked around to see what others are paying, and you have a successful track record with your other employees -- right? (If that is not right, then obviously, do some research and make adjustments!)

    Bottom line: quit asking about it, quit thinking about it, and GET RID OF THIS GUY NOW!

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    If you're not going to fire him out right, don't let him on the floor without them.

    Hand him a pair of these...one day clacking around and he'll get safeties.
    Men's 4 1/2" Wide Steel Toe Guards - 4803 - Northern Safety Co., Inc.


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