What to expect from a senior-level machinist?

I'll start all of this off by admitting my complete ignorance on the subject.
My question: How much should I expect from a senior-level machinist? How about in the $25-27hr with benefits range?

I'm more or less in charge of the shop at a small engineering services company that has some machines and one machinist, where we mostly make prototype parts for our customers.

I stopped doing the machining myself because as a young/self-taught machinist, I was taking quite some time to make parts. I felt like I was taking too long and that the company I worked for would be better off with a more experienced machinist, so I convinced the owner to hire an experienced machinist, and keep me on design work.

The problem I'm having now is that the gentleman keeps scrapping stuff. In recent memory, I can't remember anything being made that hasn't had a 50% scrap rate from runs of 10-20 parts.

Is this normal in a shop? We don't do runs of any part in quantities greater than 20, and I know that setup and getting the kinks worked out is one thing, but what should I be expecting from someone at this $/hr range?

It seems I hear that in this area good machinists are hard to find. I know some people will call , but it is my experience. We ran an ad for some time and got only a couple (as in TWO) seemingly qualified applicants. Big company too, lots of bennies, pretty "in" place to work. I have heard from the two older guys I work with (long time in the area) I am definitely one of the best they worked with. Now not tooting my own horn (well, just a little ), but I think the people that are really good at this trade take it for granted that what we are doing is the norm IMO...

Anyways, for that money you should have someone rarely making scrap (not 50%!!), and even then it should be on something complicated (or he, like everyone, has an OH SHIT moment). How long has he worked for you? Could be the new job jitters. Is it the same type of work he has done, or is he a cnc guy trying to run a bridgeport or viseversa?

If he scraps half his parts, he's not a machinist, senior or otherwise.

50% is bad but does he have the right tools?

50%?!?! Yikes. How does that compare to when you were doing the machining? It's good to have a frame of reference. 50% would kill my little shop. Between my brother and I we are usually below 2% with an occasional 10% and we don't ever let each other live it down.

Yeah I agree with what has already been posted - 50% is high. If he has only been there a week or two then cut him some slack but that's a lot. I would want to see scrap rates of less than 10% - or else a production rate that is sky high. One way or the other.

50% is not acceptable........I am assuming a shop with decent equipment, tools etc. Using real prints.....not something scribbled on a napkin where the 3 looked lika 5 etc.

WOW. For that kind of money, I would expect a guy that could take a part from print to complete.

Program, make any fixturing, set up and prove out the program. Maybe a couple scrap to get the job going, then 100% good for the production run.

scrap

mikethezipper said:

I'll start all of this off by admitting my complete ignorance on the subject.
My question: How much should I expect from a senior-level machinist? How about in the $25-27hr with benefits range?

I'm more or less in charge of the shop at a small engineering services company that has some machines and one machinist, where we mostly make prototype parts for our customers.

I stopped doing the machining myself because as a young/self-taught machinist, I was taking quite some time to make parts. I felt like I was taking too long and that the company I worked for would be better off with a more experienced machinist, so I convinced the owner to hire an experienced machinist, and keep me on design work.

The problem I'm having now is that the gentleman keeps scrapping stuff. In recent memory, I can't remember anything being made that hasn't had a 50% scrap rate from runs of 10-20 parts.

Is this normal in a shop? We don't do runs of any part in quantities greater than 20, and I know that setup and getting the kinks worked out is one thing, but what should I be expecting from someone at this $/hr range?

Click to expand...

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1) what is the cause of the scrap? programming, moved in vise or chuck, out of tolerance cause of incorrect tool comp and or no test cuts, cutting tools broke or suddenly failed ??
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2) what is the price of scrap parts $1, $10, $100, $1000 ???
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3) what is the machinist trying to do ? save some time at the expense of a few low cost parts ??
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like anything it is usually best to talk with the person. obviously i am more careful and double check more things if parts are a high cost. and it is much harder if i have to double check every thing another machinist did like incorrect tool comp or adding too much time to dull tools, etc. i have seen scrap caused by others using machine to the point of critical jobs i pull all the tools i will use out and check every one.
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on expensive parts costing over $1000. i use a startup checklist before and during program run. what is on checklist ? anything that has caused scrap or could cause scrap if not done or forgotten. program setup sheets and program hardcopy print outs are often used to record machinist to machinist things. like this caused a scrap part before do this so it does not happen again. often the most scrap is caused by not keeping notes or using a setup procedure, reading previous run notes, not using a checklist, still learning a particular cnc control system, etc

All pure conjecture until we hear the details of the errors and the tolerances being strove for.

The worst thing, IMO, is someone who doesn't learn from his mistakes.

mikethezipper said:

I'll start all of this off by admitting my complete ignorance on the subject.
My question: How much should I expect from a senior-level machinist? How about in the $25-27hr with benefits range?

I'm more or less in charge of the shop at a small engineering services company that has some machines and one machinist, where we mostly make prototype parts for our customers.

I stopped doing the machining myself because as a young/self-taught machinist, I was taking quite some time to make parts. I felt like I was taking too long and that the company I worked for would be better off with a more experienced machinist, so I convinced the owner to hire an experienced machinist, and keep me on design work.

The problem I'm having now is that the gentleman keeps scrapping stuff. In recent memory, I can't remember anything being made that hasn't had a 50% scrap rate from runs of 10-20 parts.

Is this normal in a shop? We don't do runs of any part in quantities greater than 20, and I know that setup and getting the kinks worked out is one thing, but what should I be expecting from someone at this $/hr range?

Click to expand...

You know this is an exercise in many things. Before you can do anything you need to establish what the company expectations are as far as timeliness, defect rates, procedures etc. Then you need to assess if the company provides all the tools, training, environment etc. to reasonably meet the expectations. Also assess if the expectations were clearly communicated with the machinist when, or shortly after he was brought on board. Once all that is done you need to sit down with your machinist, and candidly discuss what are the issues that keep him from meeting the company expectations. You do not want to put him on the defensive, but you also do not want to be in an indefensible position. Ask him what his recommendations would be to get to the point where he can perform to the expected levels.

dee
;-D

What we need is someone who we give a model to (3d cad model, in Solidworks) and they make the parts. We were making some parts that were complicated, and I understand that.

Just about everything we make is the standard +-.005", with many features in the 10-20 thou range. Nothing crazy here.

Any work that requires .001" tols I just pass on because we have shown that we can't hit those tolerances on location. Hole size we can hit, but the number of times the work coordinates accidentally get shifted etc is ... higher than I care for.

He has been with us for 8 months I would say.

He used to do all CNC programming either manually, or with Bobcam. Here we use HSMworks, which I have been teaching him over the past 6 months or so.

HSMworks manages to scrap stuff on its own due to bugs, but what gets me is that I would expect a machinist to check everything before he runs the full set of parts to find out 10 pieces are bad etc.

Everything we make starts as stock, so when he scraps stuff, that is only say $10-40 in material, but it'll mean that a whole day of pay for him is also lost.

As for equipment, we have two decent condition VMCs that we do just about everything on. Not the best equipment, but for the tolerances I'm talking about, and with unlimited access to ordering tooling etc, I don't see what's going on.

mikethezipper said:

What we need is someone who we give a model to (3d cad model, in Solidworks) and they make the parts. We were making some parts that were complicated, and I understand that.

Just about everything we make is the standard +-.005", with many features in the 10-20 thou range. Nothing crazy here.

Any work that requires .001" tols I just pass on because we have shown that we can't hit those tolerances on location. Hole size we can hit, but the number of times the work coordinates accidentally get shifted etc is ... higher than I care for.

He has been with us for 8 months I would say.

He used to do all CNC programming either manually, or with Bobcam. Here we use HSMworks, which I have been teaching him over the past 6 months or so.

HSMworks manages to scrap stuff on its own due to bugs, but what gets me is that I would expect a machinist to check everything before he runs the full set of parts to find out 10 pieces are bad etc.

Everything we make starts as stock, so when he scraps stuff, that is only say $10-40 in material, but it'll mean that a whole day of pay for him is also lost.

As for equipment, we have two decent condition VMCs that we do just about everything on. Not the best equipment, but for the tolerances I'm talking about, and with unlimited access to ordering tooling etc, I don't see what's going on.

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you are comparing him against perfection ? i have seen many machinist thought not very good til a few others try the same jobs and equipment and scrap parts even more. sometimes to be fully appreciated you have to leave.
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talk to machinist and ask that he reduce his scrap rate. i do not care if 1% or 99% just about every boss asks machinist to reduce their scrap rate and better boss will ask is their any thing that they, the boss can help with. better places track reason for scrap like machine malfunction, operator error, training issue, etc. you have to know reasons why before you can correct a problem

I would look at the parts that he has scrapped and try to determine from your own experience as a machinist, does what he has done make sense. If you were to set the job up, would you have had the same difficulties.

Tom

the few scrap parts i did the past year were machine malfunction, for example bore is .006 oversize when same comp was ok a hour earlier. or surface not flat and straight and needing recut. i have had machine repaired then surprise scrap rate drops to zero. mechanical problems cannot be fixed by wishing they stop. usually mechanic has to take stuff apart and put new parts in, etc.
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just saying when you look at reasons often the boss is the reason for scrap rate. for example use less tooling, tooling suddenly fails and scraps part. so whose ideal was it to not change the tooling cause it cost too much. etc

mikethezipper said:

I can't remember anything being made that hasn't had a 50% scrap rate from runs of 10-20 parts.

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Oh hellllllllllll no! 50% consistently? He would have lost his job about 10x over by now in any shop I've been in. What's more worrying is:

mikethezipper said:

he runs the full set of parts to find out 10 pieces are bad

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If he's running through entire orders without checking his parts he has got to go.

On the other hand, I think the most telling thing is his attitude. Is he apologetic about it? Does he explain what happened and constantly try to do better? Or is he just chugging along consistently putting out scrap and not caring? The former is a machinist you can work with, and the latter should try not to get his ass stuck in the door on the way out.

What has he told you as far as the reasons for such a high scrap rate? Does he come up with solutions to scrapped parts that resolve the issue next time the part is run? Are you supplying tooling he is asking for?

Aside from more information from you, it seems to me this person is overpaid. That salary level should get you an experienced programmer/setup/operation individual, 100% print to part capable. Especially here in Florida. For that money, he ought to be able diagnose exactly what is going wrong with these parts and fix the mistakes. You give him a Solid/DWG, he gives you good parts.

I work with guys making far less, with far higher expectations placed upon them.

Does he have access to use his BobCam there at work? He might be hung up on learning the new software. Get him setup with software he's comfortable with, let him get whatever tooling he needs/asks for, including inspection equipment, and make sure all the machines are repaired/maintained. If he's still scrapping 50% at that point, its time to move on.

mikethezipper said:

What we need is someone who we give a model to (3d cad model, in Solidworks) and they make the parts. We were making some parts that were complicated, and I understand that.

Just about everything we make is the standard +-.005", with many features in the 10-20 thou range. Nothing crazy here.

Any work that requires .001" tols I just pass on because we have shown that we can't hit those tolerances on location. Hole size we can hit, but the number of times the work coordinates accidentally get shifted etc is ... higher than I care for.

He has been with us for 8 months I would say.

He used to do all CNC programming either manually, or with Bobcam. Here we use HSMworks, which I have been teaching him over the past 6 months or so.

HSMworks manages to scrap stuff on its own due to bugs, but what gets me is that I would expect a machinist to check everything before he runs the full set of parts to find out 10 pieces are bad etc.

Everything we make starts as stock, so when he scraps stuff, that is only say $10-40 in material, but it'll mean that a whole day of pay for him is also lost.

As for equipment, we have two decent condition VMCs that we do just about everything on. Not the best equipment, but for the tolerances I'm talking about, and with unlimited access to ordering tooling etc, I don't see what's going on.

Click to expand...

Did you ever consider going through the exercise of creating a complete Quality Management System (QMS)? Not talking about getting fully ISO 9000 certified, but take the quality and procedure manuals prescribed, read them through and identify all critical activities that affect the quality at your shop. Codify those, like incoming inspections, parts productions, parts inspection, programming, source control for models, cam files, CNC downloadable modules....and the list goes on. It does not have to be overly complicated at first. It is more important to identify which aspect of the production you need to control, than how you going to control them.(At least as the first approximation.) That will give you the framework for you QMS. You can look at it, and when you run into a problem, you can codify how you plan to avoid it in the future, and that becomes the procedural part of your quality manual. Take an example from your message above....CAM verification, -> do not run 10 parts to find out that there is a tool path error. Tool paths shall be checked on part #1. Now you have a new procedure. Procedure: checking tool paths. First you can jut let it be done ad-hoc till you find out that someone if screwing it up, then you can codify how it shall be checked, and the list goes one. So you see a QMS can be developed very incrementally as you learn the problems you have, and then you create solutions for the known problems. If you have the QMS specified, it becomes very simple to ascertain who is causing the problem, management, the machinist, the programmer, and you can tailor a solution for that problem, or get rid of the person who sabotages your QMS. If you are careful a QMS can become a tool that you can use daily, and there are no unspoken expectation of employees.

dee
;-D

I used to work with a guy that would typically scrap the first 4 or 5 parts on new setups. He'd measure the first part find something off then adjust and run another only to find that adjustment screwed up another feature or more then one dimension was needing corrected. I don't know if he just couldn't keep track of it all in his head or he just simply got confused but it was a given he was make some junk before he worked out all the bugs.

If the setup is a good setup then having to throw away the first piece my not be all that uncommon because mistakes happen but part number 2 ought to be a gooden.

A senior machinist should have a better success rate then 50%. Mistakes will happen occasionally but that seems a bit much to me regardless of pay. Not wanting to beat the guy up JMHO.

Brent

mikethezipper said:

I'll start all of this off by admitting my complete ignorance on the subject.
My question: How much should I expect from a senior-level machinist? How about in the $25-27hr with benefits range?

I'm more or less in charge of the shop at a small engineering services company that has some machines and one machinist, where we mostly make prototype parts for our customers.

I stopped doing the machining myself because as a young/self-taught machinist, I was taking quite some time to make parts. I felt like I was taking too long and that the company I worked for would be better off with a more experienced machinist, so I convinced the owner to hire an experienced machinist, and keep me on design work.

The problem I'm having now is that the gentleman keeps scrapping stuff. In recent memory, I can't remember anything being made that hasn't had a 50% scrap rate from runs of 10-20 parts.

Is this normal in a shop? We don't do runs of any part in quantities greater than 20, and I know that setup and getting the kinks worked out is one thing, but what should I be expecting from someone at this $/hr range?

Click to expand...

Forget the "title" and wage. Anybody that makes 50% scrap isn't worth keeping.

How much would you save if you found someone that didn't "screw up" and adjust his wage accordingly?

You want someone that makes you a profit. Reading your post makes me think your biggest single customer is the local junk and scrap handler.