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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGL View Post
    What the heck, I got nothing to loose. I haven't the time to make the Xometry qualifying test part yet. I'll fill out the form and see what comes up.
    I've got a box of xometry test parts I'll sell lol

    Traveler said 1 and machinist made 10 Seeking CNC Job Shops for Shop-to-Shop supply network

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I've got a box of xometry test parts I'll sell lol

    Traveler said 1 and machinist made 10 Seeking CNC Job Shops for Shop-to-Shop supply network

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    Hell of I’d know that I wouldn’t have wasted an afternoon making one!

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Hell of I’d know that I wouldn’t have wasted an afternoon making one!
    Right. Stupid 4-40 holes in stainless. Good part to test the skills though. Did you catch the stacked dimensions on that slot? All those big tolerances but if you're out a little you kill the slot tolerance.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by metal-ica View Post
    If we could charge $250/hour we could pay our machinists $75/hr and the talent shortage would magically disappear.
    who says we don't charge 250 an hour(or more)

    but then again what the heck does shop rate matter if you have no concept of time?

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tay2daizzo8 View Post
    who says we don't charge 250 an hour(or more)

    but then again what the heck does shop rate matter if you have no concept of time?
    What is this time you speak of?

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    im not afraid to go in at $500/hour...especially for 1 pc...with all the extra time that goes into a new part, for one piece its the only way not to take a bath...or you could use 20$ bills for dunnage

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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Right. Stupid 4-40 holes in stainless. Good part to test the skills though. Did you catch the stacked dimensions on that slot? All those big tolerances but if you're out a little you kill the slot tolerance.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    The circular slot is also fun because unless you use tiny tools, if you comp to hit the diameter with one you’ll break the other.

    For the 4-40’s, I just thread milled them.

    I’m more curious how they score me on the 32 surface finish requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    The circular slot is also fun because unless you use tiny tools, if you comp to hit the diameter with one you’ll break the other.

    For the 4-40’s, I just thread milled them.

    I’m more curious how they score me on the 32 surface finish requirement.
    They had that 16ra call out on the inside face. I used a 3m soft wheel and buffed the entire part to a near mirror finish. Needed to knock the Burr down on the engraving anyways.

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    Man you made my heart race. . . .

    But I just double checked and my print is 32?

    I wonder, do they send different prints?

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    Damn, you got lucky then. When we signed up I listed all my certs, itar, as1900d, iso, nadcap, etc maybe they weigh that stuff and send out pain in the butt prints?



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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Damn, you got lucky then. When we signed up I listed all my certs, itar, as1900d, iso, nadcap, etc maybe they weigh that stuff and send out pain in the butt prints?



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    I hope I got lucky, I honestly didn’t pay as much attention to it as I should have. I put it in the machine and let it run. There was only one +- .001 dimension. I was fortunate I had a set of 0-1” ID micrometer I bought for doing shallow pockets.

    I’m hoping they send me an inspection report, it would be nice to see a cmm inspection of what the machine accomplished. Or at least compare it to my inspection with indicators, gauge blocks and micrometers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I hope I got lucky, I honestly didn’t pay as much attention to it as I should have. I put it in the machine and let it run. There was only one +- .001 dimension. I was fortunate I had a set of 0-1” ID micrometer I bought for doing shallow pockets.

    I’m hoping they send me an inspection report, it would be nice to see a cmm inspection of what the machine accomplished. Or at least compare it to my inspection with indicators, gauge blocks and micrometers.
    They won't lol. There are some tricks to doing business with them...

    Don't do any thread parts without the proper gages.

    3 wire all your od threads and take photos.

    Make your own inspection sheets instead of using their stupid one. We use solidworks inspection already for our other customers.

    Gage pins all your holes and take photos

    More photos the better.... Seems their QC department folks aren't too notch and are looking to 100% fail. We had a part that had no print, was in tolerance by their guide and they failed it saying 2 planes weren't parallel. Possible a chip got under the part and one side was .0003 thicker. No print so technically good right ...they failed it

    After some phone calls, I learned you can dispute every failed inspection and as long as they don't rework or touch the parts and their customer accepts them, they will remove the failed inspection as if it never happened.

    Also the price they show, provide feedback if it's too high. More often than not they raise the price and as long as you're fast, you can get it.

    Plus after the 5 parts and they increase your limit, there are some big fat jobs on there.

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  17. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Damn, you got lucky then. When we signed up I listed all my certs, itar, as1900d, iso, nadcap, etc maybe they weigh that stuff and send out pain in the butt prints?



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    OK, honestly not trying to be a jerk,, well... not to you specifically as I don't know you haha.

    You are the business owner, right? And you have these certs and stuff, but you still find time to post on PM...?? It doesn't add up in my mind. I could see if you have one or two of them, but the 4 'big' ones? I mean, there is kind of a big deal shop (not big big, but they supply some aero and medical to the area, plus probably nationwide) and they *just* have as9100 and isoxxx (not sure).... Not saying people can't do all of it..... but ya know if it sounds too good to be true and all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    OK, honestly not trying to be a jerk,, well... not to you specifically as I don't know you haha.

    You are the business owner, right? And you have these certs and stuff, but you still find time to post on PM...?? It doesn't add up in my mind. I could see if you have one or two of them, but the 4 'big' ones? I mean, there is kind of a big deal shop (not big big, but they supply some aero and medical to the area, plus probably nationwide) and they *just* have as9100 and isoxxx (not sure).... Not saying people can't do all of it..... but ya know if it sounds too good to be true and all
    AS9100d and ISO9001:2015 can be had in one fell swoop. NQA had no problem issuing both certs with the 2 initial audits because of the way our QM was written.

    ITAR, just hire a lawyer, pay them money and boom you have ITAR

    NADCAP, buy a chemfilm tank system and work with a prime to get it installed, running, etc and things fall in place for the NADCAP audits.

    Not rocket science or difficult, just takes greenbacks. Not every shop will need nadcap or itar. I just happen to deal with parts that require both, unlucky me...

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  20. #35
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    So, I've been thinking about this a lot more than I should. Beyond the buzzword salad, I think there's a much deeper problem. You're creating a bad market.

    Traditional sites are the quintessential bad market. People who are relationship material arrive, pair off and disappear from the site. So the majority of profiles on the site at any given time are the leftovers, so to speak.

    There's definitely value in finding new and better subcontractors. For example, if the anodizer I typically use doesn't do hardcoat, then I need to add someone that does, and does a good job. If using your site guaranteed me a good supplier, I'd pay you for that, rather than the usual "send a test job to a few who look promising and see if they screw it up."

    But, assuming I'm allowed to have any direct communication whatsoever with the anodizer and I like their work, I'm not paying you for their services a second time, because why give you 10% or 30% or whatever of every job? If I'm contractually required to, I'm not going to use your service. If you insert yourself in the middle so that I can't ever know who I'm working with or communicate directly, then that will add a ton of time and eventually the game of telephone will lead to an error.

    It's not that frequent that a shop needs to add a supplier to their network, and once they have suppliers that they're happy with it's not that frequent that they change them, in my experience.

    So people who stay on your service always looking for a new sub will be the ones that mistreat subs. Shops on the service will be the ones who aren't booked up, which means they haven't found enough work to keep all their machines fed.

    Xometry doesn't have this problem, because Xometry is targeting occasional purchasers of parts who don't have the scale or focus to build deep supplier relationships.

    That's assuming you're genuinely building this out as a domestic shop-to-shop business. If this is a glorified "sub it out to China and hope nobody notices" exercise, maybe, but there are plenty of those already.

    So what's the revenue model here? SoftBank is teetering on the brink, so business plans that are "lose a bunch of money now and we'll figure out how to gouge the customers later once we have them locked in" are going out of vogue.

    Not trying to be overly negative, and I'm sure you have a plan to address this. I just sure don't see it, and would love to hear how you intend to solve it.

  21. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comatose View Post
    So, I've been thinking about this a lot more than I should. Beyond the buzzword salad, I think there's a much deeper problem. You're creating a bad market.

    Traditional sites are the quintessential bad market. People who are relationship material arrive, pair off and disappear from the site. So the majority of profiles on the site at any given time are the leftovers, so to speak.

    There's definitely value in finding new and better subcontractors. For example, if the anodizer I typically use doesn't do hardcoat, then I need to add someone that does, and does a good job. If using your site guaranteed me a good supplier, I'd pay you for that, rather than the usual "send a test job to a few who look promising and see if they screw it up."

    But, assuming I'm allowed to have any direct communication whatsoever with the anodizer and I like their work, I'm not paying you for their services a second time, because why give you 10% or 30% or whatever of every job? If I'm contractually required to, I'm not going to use your service. If you insert yourself in the middle so that I can't ever know who I'm working with or communicate directly, then that will add a ton of time and eventually the game of telephone will lead to an error.

    It's not that frequent that a shop needs to add a supplier to their network, and once they have suppliers that they're happy with it's not that frequent that they change them, in my experience.

    So people who stay on your service always looking for a new sub will be the ones that mistreat subs. Shops on the service will be the ones who aren't booked up, which means they haven't found enough work to keep all their machines fed.

    Xometry doesn't have this problem, because Xometry is targeting occasional purchasers of parts who don't have the scale or focus to build deep supplier relationships.

    That's assuming you're genuinely building this out as a domestic shop-to-shop business. If this is a glorified "sub it out to China and hope nobody notices" exercise, maybe, but there are plenty of those already.

    So what's the revenue model here? SoftBank is teetering on the brink, so business plans that are "lose a bunch of money now and we'll figure out how to gouge the customers later once we have them locked in" are going out of vogue.

    Not trying to be overly negative, and I'm sure you have a plan to address this. I just sure don't see it, and would love to hear how you intend to solve it.
    I'll provide the link again: Jobshopblog - CNC Machining Suppliers, CNC Machine Shop | The Job Shop Blog

    I wish you'd read it. The misunderstanding comes from the reflexive attacks in the beginning. Once that happens, it seems as though things just go off on a unrecoverable tangent. There is no revenue model. I'm offering the service as a courtesy.

    Also... to be clear, this is a CNC machine shop to CNC machine shop platform. That said, I have one 3D printer, one Swiss CNC shop and one manual only toolmaker in the database. They took the time to reply so it was no skin off my nose to add columns to the database in case an inquiry comes in.

    I expected it to be a bit of a slog (for reasons expressed) and it has been. I've made only one introduction so far because I've had only one "buyer" shop express interest so far.

    The benefit of this thing I'm trying to promote are real, in my opinion. They include:

    1) Discretion for the shops. Only I know about them and they only know of each other when I introduce them. They are not putting their names out there for their employees or Customers to see or hear about. It may not be a big deal for some, but there are many job shops that shy away from seeking capacity help because they don't want it known that they are "too" busy.

    2) Time savings. Not all shops want to work for other shops. With this service, the "buyer" shop has an opportunity to be introduced to any number of shops that are known to welcome the opportunity to be their supplier. There is no calling around needed.

    3) Freedom to develop the relationship or not as they see fit. You want to put NDA's and non-competes in place? Fine. You want an out-of-state source so they have no access to your local Customer? Fine. Once you have a successful transaction, you may work together whenever you like and I may never hear from you again.

    4) Vetting (as time goes by). If a buyer or a supplier perform badly in their role, I would expect to be alerted to that fact. I would take the time to look into it. I am not taking any fee, but if a supplier took a job and missed a commitment or shipped junk, I would not recommend them again. If a buyer paid in 60 days after agreeing to pay in 30 days, I wouldn't have any interest in connecting them to a new supplier to abuse. This complimentary service is being offered to *help* people. That purpose isn't advanced by keeping poor performers in the group.

    Mentioning it here was a double-edged sword. I got most of the interest from supplier shops that saw it here, but I got a lot of bad "press" as well. That probably kept some away.

    *If* it develops, I will be building up quite a listing of capabilities. The database already has ISO 9001: 2015 and AS9100-certified suppliers in it.

    At some point in the future, I plan to expand my site to offer OEM's producibility support among other services. My database may put me in a good position to help place work as an extension of helping the OEM drive cost out of it with design (the proverbial +/- .0005 on the diameter with a .004 true position tolerance on bolt holes, for example).

    It will *always*, however, have small to mid-sized CNC machine shop advocacy at its core. There will never be a time when I'm not willing to introduce two CNC machine shops to each other with the hope that both benefit from the introduction.

    Hopefully that explains it.

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    Gotcha. There is a revenue model. It's a data play. Sign people up to use your free service, scrape the information off that, use the scraped information to sell them other things. The Gmail model.

    Carry on, then.

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  24. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobshopblog.com View Post

    1) I wish you'd read it.

    2) *If* it develops, I will be building up quite a listing of capabilities. The database already has ISO 9001: 2015 and AS9100-certified suppliers in it.

    3) At some point in the future, I plan to expand my site to offer OEM's producibility support among other services. My database may put me in a good position to help place work as an extension of helping the OEM drive cost out of it with design (the proverbial +/- .0005 on the diameter with a .004 true position tolerance on bolt holes, for example).

    4) It will *always*, however, have small to mid-sized CNC machine shop advocacy at its core. There will never be a time when I'm not willing to introduce two CNC machine shops to each other with the hope that both benefit from the introduction.

    5) Hopefully that explains it.

    6) At some point in the future, I plan to expand my site to offer OEM's producibility support among other services. My database may put me in a good position.....
    1) I did, in your "Meet the Host" it states you like to write. Yes you do. Sometimes less is more. Pontificate & eunoia, look them up.

    "There is no revenue model. I'm offering the service as a courtesy."

    There is a revenue model behind your "friendly help" and you are not up front and that is why people are suspect. Or... maybe you are that wealthy and friendly? Politician?

    2) It will develop to a point, but to what extent is based on your revenue. Little revenue = little growth as you have already spent resources on developing this venture. Time is money and you seem to have spent time (and resources) developing this, but now others will have spend time to grow this.

    3) Again, you need revenue to do this. It is through others capabilities and efforts that you will be able to expand. How do you motivate others to buy into this? I would say; Be Honest.

    4) Of course! There is a lot of revenue in small shops. Especially as they grow in capability. Maybe you will feel responsible for their growth? Come join my club and watch your business grow! Future line for you: "I have helped 15 small cnc shops grow to be $5million+ dollar shops"

    5) It does. You just have to read between the lines as you do have an open agenda and a hidden agenda. The hidden agenda is what others find suspect.

    6) If all goes well, it will put you in a great position...

    I have seen this forum create great relationships between shops, at no cost and no hidden agenda. There are plenty of threads where shops are looking for capabilities and assistance in certain machining issues. They receive help without a hidden agenda. Sometimes there is the business aspect of developing a relationship to gain additional work through their assistance.

    EDIT: People don't care if you make money, there are a lot of business-minded people here. It's how you are making that money, and if it is off their hard work and efforts they don't appreciate it. You haven't cracked that code yet. There is a way, but it is not your approach.

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  26. #39
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    This was great feedback, Drom68. I’m guessing it is the only use of, “eunoia” in the history of the site, so it probably broke new ground. I smiled at the “politician” comment. I’m plenty political in my personal life but not a politician.

    I’m unsure how to get around the problem of “No, I don’t’” vs “Yes, you do” as it pertains to a “hidden agenda.” That level of skepticism started the instant I made the first post. Except to answer it, what can I do?

    It is simply a fact that I’m maintaining a database of shops that are willing to work for other shops with the intent of introducing them to shops in need of capacity help when asked. That introduction is discreet. The only people that know about it are me and the two companies.

    I’m not vetting “supplier shops.” I’m not running credit checks on “buyer shops.” I’m not reviewing models or prints. Instead, I’m falling back on a basic truth that makes this so easy once (and if) you clear the “trust” hurdle – both companies are CNC machining houses. They know the instant they see a print if it is a fit for them and they are able to bypass all of the traditional “stuff” that goes into the quoting process for a new OEM Customer.

    Something like, “I need 50 of these parts in two weeks. Can you do them in that time for $30 each?” gets an answer like, “Yes, but I need the order today to get the material on order and I need to be paid in 30 days.” That conversation happens between the two shops after I’ve introduced them and without me seeing it.

    It is important to remember that the “opportunity” only happens when a buyer shop has short-term capacity problems they’ve been unable to address internally. It is a last resort for them. Add that spotty and unpredictable need to the underlying trust issue and you end up with something I said very early on – anyone trying to generate revenue from shop-to-shop supply would starve.

    What I will say, though, is that the database currently has CNC milling capacity up to 72”, CNC turning capacity up to 38”, 5x milling up to 500mm, Swiss CNC, Mill/Turn, Additive Manufacturing, welding, laser cutting and waterjet. If it were all under the same roof, it would be one helluva operation. Even so, there are some very impressive operations by themselves.

    You say, “Again, you need revenue to do this. It is through others capabilities and efforts that you will be able to expand. How do you motivate others to buy into this? I would say; Be Honest.”

    I’ve been unable to get through with the fact that I’m not trying to be a broker. One of the earlier critical comments referred to the 10%-ers from days gone by. I did work for one of those brokers. I’m very familiar with the process. This is not that. You challenge me to “be honest.” Your assumption that I’m not being honest is beyond my control. You say I need revenue in order to maintain a database and make introductions. I honestly don’t and I can’t help that you don’t believe me.
    You ask how I’ll motivate people to buy into this? Simple – by offering the service and catering to those that choose to participate. Again – this is not time consuming. I’ve spent a great deal more time answering questions here (something I’m happy to do to try to address the concerns) than I have entering company names and capabilities in the database. Can your shop use some help meeting dates because your Customers are pulling in PO’s due in February to try to make their year? I have the names of companies with the capacity to help that want to work for shops like yours. Whether or not you’re motivated to interact with them is completely beyond my control.

    You say, “There is a lot of revenue in small shops. Especially as they grow in capability. Maybe you will feel responsible for their growth? Come join my club and watch your business grow! Future line for you: "I have helped 15 small cnc shops grow to be $5million+ dollar shops"

    I couldn’t agree more. The thing is, my website is my club. I’m writing posts intended to accomplish the growth you speak of. The entire purpose of the posts is to advance and advocate for the small CNC shops. I’ve been candid that I believe the work is “trying” to come back from China and that there are a number of well-established advocacy groups advancing that cause. I have strong opinions on the barriers to growth and the ways to address them. I’m having meetings with people that have grown their businesses using the strategies I advance and sold them to their great benefit. I’ll be collaborating with them on shared content in the near future. Collaboration was one of the goals I had when starting the website and I’m excited about it. In short, I’m in the very early stages of trying to develop my site. Although it will take time to develop the content touching all of the bases, the things I write about are intended to help small shops grow. (What some describe as “management meeting blather” others may find useful).

    You said that my earlier explanation explained it and added, “You just have to read between the lines as you do have an open agenda and a hidden agenda. The hidden agenda is what others find suspect.”

    “Yes, you do.” “No, I don’t.” Whatever the case, I’ve got a growing list of supplier shops with a wide-ranging capacity. Shops that would like access to it need do no more than ask. “I have a job from 1” x 3” 6061-T6 saw cut to 5” that will need VMC capacity for two operations. It gets anodized but I’ll do that here as I need to use an approved supplier. I’d prefer an out-of-state shop.” I’ll introduce you to companies that have the capacity you need. You take it from there. Whatever it is about that you find “hidden” is, again, beyond my control.

    You closed with, “People don't care if you make money, there are a lot of business-minded people here. It's how you are making that money, and if it is off their hard work and efforts they don't appreciate it. You haven't cracked that code yet. There is a way, but it is not your approach.”

    Fair enough. Again – this was good feedback and I appreciate that you took the time to give it. I honestly don’t know how else to approach it but to answer the questions as they’re asked. Although I admit that it isn’t any fun having my credibility challenged at every turn, I do appreciate the chance to have the discussion on this forum as it has been the source of many of supplier shops I have in the database. Also… I’ll take your “less is more” admonishment to heart. I find that I often try to anticipate questions/challenges and speak to them before they are asked. My email address is [email protected] or you can reach me through the website if you’d like to arrange a call for any reason.

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    I could not stop laughing with this thread. I wasn't expecting to find the secrets behind becoming ISO/AS/NADCAP/ITAR and working for Xometry.

    The point about time is a good one though. Mr. Jobshopblog.com, I simply don't have time to read what you have to say; your posts are very long. Can we get a summary? Are you another Xometry?


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