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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderskunk View Post
    Mr. Jobshopblog.com, I simply don't have time to read what you have to say; your posts are very long. Can we get a summary? Are you another Xometry?
    No. (I tried to end the reply there, but PM said it was too short. Posts have to be at least 10 characters).

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    You can type 8 more characters and change their color to white.
    They won’t show up.

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    Just a quick note that the process of actively seeking buyer shops has begun. A page has been added to the website listing the available capabilities. It will be updated often as it expands. https://jobshopblog.com/cnc-machining-capacity

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I've got a box of xometry test parts I'll sell lol

    Traveler said 1 and machinist made 10 Seeking CNC Job Shops for Shop-to-Shop supply network

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    How much, seriously, pm me.

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    Ok, so many of you have been hammering on Andy for having a hidden agenda.
    Thats fair - we are a sullen and cynical bunch from experience.

    Smoke / Sunshine, it's often hard to tell the difference.

    I have had a bit of private conversation with Andy and following the latin phrase "uino ueritas" and presently being under the influence of a bit of fermented and distilled Rye...

    I must say I believe Andy is sincere in his desire to help. My impression is he is in a comfortable position fiscally and can afford to spend time that helps the community yet does not bring him profit; A noble quest.

    For me personally I am in a position of just a guy with a CNC mill, software and a fair amount of tooling; passion; possibly affliction to rise to my level of incompetence. I would love to connect with a shop or several that would simply contact me with Job X for price Y, Z number of parts delivered by date ##### for this much $$$. you want it or not?

    My dream is to retire from my current interesting and challenging yet frustrating job... To interesting, challenging and frustrating work that can employ my family into something more satisfying then retail and domestic service jobs that barely pay just over minimum wage.

    Like Andy, I want to pass on what has been gifted to me thru legions of persons who took a effort to hammer a nail in my hard head - to pass on a gift - to make others quality of life better, starting with family so that they can then thrive and be able to pass on to the next generation.

    All I have to say for now.
    Most honestly
    B

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    So how much is your cut ?
    Thing is is that I have no problem paying that middle guy 10 to 20% or his/her markup in this or more.
    As a sales rep I would not handle any line for less. Base stock and unsold goods.That would we a huge loss leader under such any less markup.
    It may seem wrong but others are doing some work and need to live just like you.
    Salesmen are expensive, employ you own and see
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGL View Post
    I must say I believe Andy is sincere in his desire to help. My impression is he is in a comfortable position fiscally and can afford to spend time that helps the community yet does not bring him profit; A noble quest.
    The yellow pages used to do all this stuff that we have to be "connected" for now. They were reasonably cheap and even made the phone company some money. Plus they were a hundred times more informative and faster and easier to use.

    Just something to think about ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Thing is is that I have no problem paying that middle guy 10 to 20% or his/her markup in this or more.
    As a sales rep I would not handle any line for less. Base stock and unsold goods.That would we a huge loss leader under such any less markup.
    It may seem wrong but others are doing some work and need to live just like you.
    Salesmen are expensive, employ you own and see
    Bob
    I agree, Bob. I was always happy to be paying sales commissions - it meant that I was making money. The thing about this is that there is no room for a commissioned middleman. One of the barriers for shop-to-shop relationships is the thin margin. Although the "buyer" shop may be willing to break even in order to make a delivery date they would not otherwise make, it is a factor that adds to trying everything under the sun before subbing it out. Leaving any small "cut" as part of the relationship between buyer and supplier gives it the best chance to be successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The yellow pages used to do all this stuff that we have to be "connected" for now. They were reasonably cheap and even made the phone company some money. Plus they were a hundred times more informative and faster and easier to use.

    Just something to think about ...
    I think it is probably easier to use a search engine than the old YP, and there are many shops that already do that. The less easy part of it is making the decision to reach out to another shop just to learn that they aren't interested in working for other shops or that they don't have the capacity. By completing the form, a buyer shop gets connected with shops that have already expressed interest in working for other shops with known capacity to make the part. Those things out of the way, the two shops determine with direct communication if delivery dates and finances work and move forward or not as they see fit.

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    I see two issues, as “areas of opportunity” since you are into buzz words, I think that’s the appropriate one?

    I think your seriously selling yourself short with the emphasis on “CNC Shop”.

    If you ask my capacity and abilities by asking me to list my CNC, you sell me and your “buyers” short. My capacities and abilities far exceed the one CNC I own.

    I do not say that to brag, there are far better machinist here and everywhere that much more talented than I. But CNC machining only represents a very small part of my abilities.

    The second, it sounds like you have lots of suppliers, how are you procuring buyers?

    One small detail I would want to know before considering your service, how is my information stored and secured?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I see two issues, as “areas of opportunity” since you are into buzz words, I think that’s the appropriate one?

    I think your seriously selling yourself short with the emphasis on “CNC Shop”.

    If you ask my capacity and abilities by asking me to list my CNC, you sell me and your “buyers” short. My capacities and abilities far exceed the one CNC I own.

    I do not say that to brag, there are far better machinist here and everywhere that much more talented than I. But CNC machining only represents a very small part of my abilities.

    The second, it sounds like you have lots of suppliers, how are you procuring buyers?

    One small detail I would want to know before considering your service, how is my information stored and secured?
    The ongoing "buzzword" theme makes me smile at this point. In any event, I'm not seeking areas of opportunity. Instead, I've long felt what I'm trying to accomplish (shop-to-shop trade) is a needed resource for the industry. I've talked about it at length (too much length for some). Some agree. Some don't.

    I agree that small shop owners have any number of important talents. They're doing sales, quoting, purchasing, programming, tooling, operating, deburring, inspecting and shipping. I'm not trying to tap those individual talents. I'm simply trying to connect their company (and all of the talents in it) with other CNC shops that have a need for them.

    I collect information in an Excel spreadsheet. It has contact information, location, website (if any), machining capacity by type, QMS certifications (if any) and any other services (if any). I have no "sensitive" information on any company. The database of "suppliers" has grown quite a bit today, already.

    Regarding "buyers," I'm attempting to find them through my website, social media (Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Pinterest) and forums such as this. The website was updated just yesterday and the other outreach (is that a buzzword?) was done last night and this morning. If it is successful, inquiries will start to happen and introductions will start being made. I'd expect it to take a little time, though. If it is not successful, there will be no interest and no introductions. I'll simply have a spreadsheet with a bunch of shop names and contact information from all over the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobshopblog.com View Post
    I think it is probably easier to use a search engine than the old YP, and there are many shops that already do that. The less easy part of it is making the decision to reach out to another shop just to learn that they aren't interested in working for other shops or that they don't have the capacity. By completing the form, a buyer shop gets connected with shops that have already expressed interest in working for other shops with known capacity to make the part. Those things out of the way, the two shops determine with direct communication if delivery dates and finances work and move forward or not as they see fit.
    This is a fair point. It also brings to the forefront the question of how you manage that any better than a search engine.

    You said it doesn't put a drag on your resources just to maintain the database. I can see someone with a dream and some passion doing that pro-bono, it seems simple enough. How often are you going to update actual spare capacity? You said it yourself that this is highly volatile and unpredictable, so how are you going to address the issue that you already know exists?

    Seems at this point the only thing you've done so far is get together a list of people who won't hang up on someone asking for sub work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    This is a fair point. It also brings to the forefront the question of how you manage that any better than a search engine.

    You said it doesn't put a drag on your resources just to maintain the database. I can see someone with a dream and some passion doing that pro-bono, it seems simple enough. How often are you going to update actual spare capacity? You said it yourself that this is highly volatile and unpredictable, so how are you going to address the issue that you already know exists?

    Seems at this point the only thing you've done so far is get together a list of people who won't hang up on someone asking for sub work.
    The database is updated continually as shops ask to be included in it. The web page will be updated occasionally on no set schedule. The other day there were 33 CNC mills and 12 CNC lathes. Today there are 40 mills and 15 lathes. I started to actively advertise for "buyers" when I felt comfortable that there were enough resources and enough regional coverage to be useful. Future website updates will be at my discretion.

    I don't disagree with your conclusion, Pete. All that's been accomplished is, in fact, a listing of CNC machining houses that have capacity and welcome the opportunity to do work for their peers. The usefulness of that list is determined by each of us for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobshopblog.com View Post
    I think it is probably easier to use a search engine than the old YP ...
    Are you old enough to have ever used the yellow pages ?

    I disagree about ease of use. Perhaps five years ago but nowadays all the search engines fuck everything up for their own purposes. And worse, most shops with a web presence are more into buzzwords than information. It's really hard to find good information about a business online nowadays. So maybe there is a need to be filled but ...

    I'm also kinda dubious about your basic premise. Most shops don't need other shops. They need customers. And limiting yourself to nc is kinda dumb. Many specialties that a shop might be looking for have nothing to do with nc. For instance, thread grinding. ID grinding. Honing. Forging. Gear cutting. Cam grinding. Cutoff services. Thread rolling.

    All those things are not going to be nc, and they are all specialties that an nc shop would be likely to send out.

    The basic idea might be okay but you need to have a more sensible approach to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Are you old enough to have ever used the yellow pages ?

    I disagree about ease of use. Perhaps five years ago but nowadays all the search engines fuck everything up for their own purposes. And worse, most shops with a web presence are more into buzzwords than information. It's really hard to find good information about a business online nowadays. So maybe there is a need to be filled but ...

    I'm also kinda dubious about your basic premise. Most shops don't need other shops. They need customers. And limiting yourself to nc is kinda dumb. Many specialties that a shop might be looking for have nothing to do with nc. For instance, thread grinding. ID grinding. Honing. Forging. Gear cutting. Cam grinding. Cutoff services. Thread rolling.

    All those things are not going to be nc, and they are all specialties that an nc shop would be likely to send out.

    The basic idea might be okay but you need to have a more sensible approach to this.
    I'm happy to agree to disagree, Emanuel. A website that lists a company's machining capacity is all I need to know to understand what they do. Many include pictures of their work, discussion about their evolution, listings of certifications they have, programming platforms, Customer testimonials and blog posts about their approach to their craft. At very least, I find this information no less useful than a static ad in the old YP. I almost always find it more useful. That's me. You clearly see it differently and I have no desire to try to change your view.

    You are correct that CNC shops have needs for all kinds of sources for various things. You are even correct that many, maybe even most, have no need for other shops to help them move their backlog. My own experience tells me that there are plenty of CNC shops that could benefit from what is being offered here. Both can be true at the same time.

    You list myriad processes that shops may want to sub out and call me dumb for not including them. It is true that I'm not offering a database targeted at anything other than CNC machining. It is your opinion that it is dumb. I don't share your opinion, but that raises a question... if I'm dumb, how would I know?

    If your shop needs a forging house, grinder or honing capacity, dig out the latest Yellow Pages. There are probably listings in there for investment casting, injection molding, plating, painting, electrical assembly, laser marking and a whole host of other things beyond the scope of my efforts. The listed companies may even still be in business.

    If your shop is overloaded and running up against delivery dates and you are considering subbing work to other CNC machine shops, I'm happy to introduce you to shops that would like to help.

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    A Questions and Answers blog post about the Shop-to-Shop supply initiative: Q'&'A About the Shop-to-Shop Initiative for CNC Machining

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    We just added a CNC programming services company to the shop-to-shop database. This company offers CNC programming services across the country with offices in North Carolina, Texas and California. If you're in need of CNC programming support, simply complete the "Contact Us" form at the bottom of the page and you will be connected. CNC Machining - The Job Shop Blog

    The database of CNC machining capacity available to CNC machine shops in need of capacity support is up to 59 CNC mills (including five 5x), 26 CNC lathes (including 5 mill/turn) and 7 Swiss CNC.

    Happy New Year, everyone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobshopblog.com View Post
    We just added a CNC programming services company to the shop-to-shop database. This company offers CNC programming services across the country with offices in North Carolina, Texas and California. If you're in need of CNC programming support, simply complete the "Contact Us" form at the bottom of the page and you will be connected. CNC Machining - The Job Shop Blog

    The database of CNC machining capacity available to CNC machine shops in need of capacity support is up to 59 CNC mills (including five 5x), 26 CNC lathes (including 5 mill/turn) and 7 Swiss CNC.

    Happy New Year, everyone!

    Yeah, That guy is all over the Facebook machining forums recruiting anyone he can find that thinks they are a programmer then using their home address as office locations. For the hell of it I started a chat with him with a few questions on what it takes to be a contract programmer. Basically an email address, a computer, and a seat of software. He doesn't even care if it's pirated or not.

    The conversation went on a bit then I asked about his liability insurance in case a program damaged a machine or created down time. No insurance, Since the "Operator" is proofing then the sole liability would be on them. I then explained how a contract programmer crashed my $750K Mori NMV5000DCG causing a bit over $100K in damages plus being down for almost a month. The guy kinda scoffed and said "no milling machine cost that much".

    My point to this is, Do you have a liability carrier in case you connect two parties and something goes wrong? The reason I ask is Bill Wright at Cad/Cam Recruiters turned me on to this guy. After the crash I had no choice but to turn it into my State Farm because the guy had no insurance. Insurance companies WILL do whatever it takes to recover their losses. In this case they went after the Programmer, Bill Wright, and even Mastercam. What was worse is the guy was using a cracked version of Mastercam and after my insurance got through with him Mastercam went after him. A couple years later my insurance agent said the total judgments including legal reimbursements was north of $300K.

    Just something you should consider if you are going to be connecting people in manufacturing. Insurance companies are nasty and do not care for you at all, so don't think if/when there is a problem they wont come after you just because you built a website. If you have money they will find a way. CYOA!!!!!!

    If ya wanna see why I outsourced the programming here's a vid from the day they got my machine plugged in but before I had any training. I had no clue how that MAAPS worked.

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Yeah, That guy is all over the Facebook machining forums recruiting anyone he can find that thinks they are a programmer then using their home address as office locations. For the hell of it I started a chat with him with a few questions on what it takes to be a contract programmer. Basically an email address, a computer, and a seat of software. He doesn't even care if it's pirated or not.

    The conversation went on a bit then I asked about his liability insurance in case a program damaged a machine or created down time. No insurance, Since the "Operator" is proofing then the sole liability would be on them. I then explained how a contract programmer crashed my $750K Mori NMV5000DCG causing a bit over $100K in damages plus being down for almost a month. The guy kinda scoffed and said "no milling machine cost that much".

    My point to this is, Do you have a liability carrier in case you connect two parties and something goes wrong? The reason I ask is Bill Wright at Cad/Cam Recruiters turned me on to this guy. After the crash I had no choice but to turn it into my State Farm because the guy had no insurance. Insurance companies WILL do whatever it takes to recover their losses. In this case they went after the Programmer, Bill Wright, and even Mastercam. What was worse is the guy was using a cracked version of Mastercam and after my insurance got through with him Mastercam went after him. A couple years later my insurance agent said the total judgments including legal reimbursements was north of $300K.

    Just something you should consider if you are going to be connecting people in manufacturing. Insurance companies are nasty and do not care for you at all, so don't think if/when there is a problem they wont come after you just because you built a website. If you have money they will find a way. CYOA!!!!!!

    If ya wanna see why I outsourced the programming here's a vid from the day they got my machine plugged in but before I had any training. I had no clue how that MAAPS worked.

    YouTube
    It is an important word of caution and I appreciate it, G-coder. It is an unfortunate reality that anyone can bring a lawsuit and that a the cost of defending against one is significant - even if it won't go anywhere. That is a hard stop - I agree with you.

    Unrelated to mitigating risk (you're right - that's what insurance is for), I'll make some comments about the mindset I have.

    There is a reason I'm not offering listings of company names like so many others do - why I'm keeping names private until such time as a specific request is made. First, I'm not "representing" any of the companies in the database. I'm simply identifying companies with CNC machining capacity that have a desire to do work for other CNC machining houses. There are multiple companies offering CNC milling and turning capacity. All of them will be made available via introduction (one at a time by order of entry) upon request from a buyer shop. The buyer shop would take it from there as they see fit.

    I expanded the database three times by request - for manual, 3D printing and now CNC programming. I have one listing each for those three disciplines. I declined a request from a very capable shop from across the border because it was beyond my scope (advocacy of domestic US CNC machining). That was tough because our discussions led me to believe that they were very supportive of the concept and would have been a great resource.

    I'm not soliciting Customers in the traditional sense of things. In fact, the database is not accessible to OEM Customers. I've received one such request and declined.

    The beauty of not offering company names in favor of simply offering an introduction to capacity is reflected in the fact that I have no way of knowing if the company you are talking about is the company in the database. Each of the companies in the database for CNC machining capacity could offer "CNC programming" if they wanted to because they do it for themselves. That would come out in conversations between the two shops. I would not be included in those conversations. LinkedIn (for one other example) has companies offering programming services just like multiple FB pages. I doubt anyone would come to me looking for programming help since my traffic is dwarfed by those sites, but it is there if the request is made.

    What makes this able to be complimentary is the lack of vetting needed to be done by me. If this were an effort attempting to drive sales for specific shops, there would be a very high degree of vetting involved. I would be extremely selective in selection of principals. I would also insist on being involved in the quoting process and method definition. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I'd want to make sure mine was considered as part of the process. I'd also be "hands-on" in terms of making sure delivery dates are on track and Customer communication was being handled properly. I would not be a "lead generator" whose hands-on role ends with the receipt of a RFQ and transaction role ends with a commission check. In other words, I'd treat it as if I owned it because my name would be on it. While there are probably shops that would welcome such a relationship, I think they would be pretty hard to find. I'm not a sales rep.

    In any event, your caution is well-taken and I appreciate it. I have no way of knowing if the company you refer to is the one in the database but my conversation with them painted a different picture.

    I had hoped to have greater "buyer" interest by now but it is still relatively new and everything slows down this time of year. We'll see if things shake out well in 2020.

    By the way, I watched your video. I cringed hard at the hard overtravel alarms and rewatched it to see if I really saw what I thought I saw. <shudders>

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