Shop Foreman's attitude toward other employees - What's crossing the line? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Ok, just to clear things up, not that it makes a huge difference, I re-read what I wrote about the example conversation and it should have been worded a little differently, because "Bob" did not accidentally drop the grinder, it was more of a "I'm done with this and I'm getting it out of my way as quickly as possible by dropping it on the ground" kind of thing.

    He's not out there every day all day yelling at people left and right, it's just when someone makes a mistake where they should have known better, or they make repeat mistakes, or when they ask the same questions every day and never learn, that's when he loses his temper. It's things that would make most people upset, I just feel like his self-control is lacking. My point in the original question was more so where do I draw the line, is he supposed to never raise his voice, etc.

    But from what it sounds like from the rest of you, it pretty much seems like it depends on the shop environment and the people working there. I know from my own experience being nice and giving out warning after warning doesn't work, but I also see that being overly harsh is just going to push people away. So I'll just work with him to find somewhere in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    On the other hand...the whole crew may up & quit "en mass"...walk out and leave him
    standing there, trying to get production out....
    It's a fine line

    I grew up playing sports. It's normal in that environment to be "yelled at", encouraged, and be told you fucked up when you fucked up. It's not personal, it's just how it is. "Dubeau, you missed that fucking ground ball and 2 runs scored", sorry coach wont happen again. "Dubeau, you drilled these holes too big in those parts, and they're all fucking scrap" Sorry boss I'll pay more attention next time, and it won't happen again. Perhaps I'm just used to that way of thinking and being treated. It doesn't bother me one bit IF it's warranted. Be direct and to the point about the issue with me, and we'll work towards a solution. If you're an abusive dick about small meaningless petty things, or make things personal that don't need to be, then I'll give it right back to you. Firm, but fair. It's a fine line....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Econdron View Post
    Ok, just to clear things up, not that it makes a huge difference, I re-read what I wrote about the example conversation and it should have been worded a little differently, because "Bob" did not accidentally drop the grinder, it was more of a "I'm done with this and I'm getting it out of my way as quickly as possible by dropping it on the ground" kind of thing.

    He's not out there every day all day yelling at people left and right, it's just when someone makes a mistake where they should have known better, or they make repeat mistakes, or when they ask the same questions every day and never learn, that's when he loses his temper. It's things that would make most people upset, I just feel like his self-control is lacking. My point in the original question was more so where do I draw the line, is he supposed to never raise his voice, etc.

    But from what it sounds like from the rest of you, it pretty much seems like it depends on the shop environment and the people working there. I know from my own experience being nice and giving out warning after warning doesn't work, but I also see that being overly harsh is just going to push people away. So I'll just work with him to find somewhere in the middle.
    I think you are on to something with the warning after warning part. If all you ever do is give out "warnings" then people see you as someone who can be ignored with out repercussions.
    Last edited by kenton; 04-02-2019 at 03:24 PM. Reason: rephrasing

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    I manage 2 groups at work, 1 of which I worked my way up thru initially starting at zero, some of the guys are older than me some younger, after running the 1 team for 5 years I recently went into my bosses office and said I can't do it anymore. Having worked in the field I know too much, i.e. who's doing work and who isn't, who's scamming hours, who's misusing company funds, etc. I internalize alot of the frustration because I know it's not acceptable to go off on someone even though sometimes it's exactly what they need. The legacy guys never really bought into me being their manager. I grew up on a farm, you don't work, you don't get paid, no excuses, no bullshit (so to speak), dealing with these guys has been a miserable experience for me and I figured it's best to move on.
    I can relate to the OP's foreman, I have no doubt he's trying to do a good job, it's obvious he cares but the manner in which he does so isn't the way to go. He probably wants to go back to being an individual contributor but the problem is he's making a foreman's salary and currently the money outweighs happiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    We had a mild manor guy who was a decent worker. His boss would verbally abuse him every day. On day the mild manor guy just picked up a slip yoke casting and bashed the bosses head in.. Boss lived but never got sharp enough to works again..
    Some day that boss may get his come-up-ins.

    I cant remember what happened to the mild manor guy.

    Guess if I was that bosses boss I would tell him to shape up or ship out.
    When I was an apprentice we had one very tall, strong apprentice. Never to his face but I always referred to him as "The Gentle Giant" (TGG). He was probably 6 foot 3". One of the other apprentices (and he was only about 5 foot 5") seemed to go out of his way to annoy him but TGG just seemed to ignore him.

    We never knew what was said or done but one day TGG just picked up the annoying brat and threw him over a container. Blood yes but no broken bones. The brat never bothered TGG again.

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    A lot of good points from both sides in this thread. I've been yelled at and berated like that when I deserved it and when I didn't. If I make an expensive, careless, etc. mistake I'll sit there and take my licks. I messed up and cost the company time and money that isn't coming back so my boss needs to make that point clear with me. How that point is delivered I would think depends on the severity of the mistake.
    Did someone get seriously hurt?
    Do we have a million dollar machine that's gonna be down for weeks?
    Are we losing a customer because I put the wrong drill in and scrapped an order?
    If it's something of that sort than it needs to be known or else it's bound to happen again.

    Where I draw the line is when it's an everyday thing because "That's just how he is". You can't treat people like that with the day to day small stuff, that's when people start looking for other jobs. I was in that situation and had to get out dreading to go to work for "That Guy" everyday. Over 5 years later and I'm happily employed somewhere I don't get scolded for using too many paper towels when I wash my arms after cleaning a coolant tank all day.

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    OT: Police chase from around Utica to Detroit.
    I was on that road (Groesbeck / M97) near the same time as the chase..Wow could have got hit by that guy. likely missed this by a half hour or so,

    End of chase he give up.. thought he could our run the copter..

    VIDEO: High-speed police chase starts in Utica, ends in Detroit

    looks like the chase was about 25 miles long and cops held back a distance..Accident reported on I 94 that was siad ti be related to chase.

    The story sounds like a road rage and one guy who was shot grabbed a police car and tried to get away..the other car was the one that went down Groesbeck to Detroit.
    Shooting leads to police chase of stolen cruiser in Sterling Heights

    OH [Police say it started about 7:15 a.m. ] Guess I missed it by a couple hours...

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    I have a short temper at times, but I also screw up myself. Getting pist off at someone who dropped a grinder is stupid. So the foreman has never dropped a tool? Shit, I have had days where I have to pick up a marker like 4 or 5 times in a row. I guess I'm just a screw up. What about tripping over a cord, or cutting the wrong piece of material.

    I had a guy say I dont know why the welder isn't on. I said did you plug the correct welder in, 3 plugs with 6 welders sitting there. He said he turned on the correct switch for that welder. I said but is that welder plugged into that switch. Oh I dont know.. well I didn't scream at him, I had to teach him again how to do it. For the 3rd time, but I didn't call him a freaking idiot. That's like 7 times lol.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    We had a mild manor guy who was a decent worker. His boss would verbally abuse him every day. On day the mild manor guy just picked up a slip yoke casting and bashed the bosses head in.. Boss lived but never got sharp enough to works again..
    Some day that boss may get his come-up-ins.

    I cant remember what happened to the mild manor guy.

    Guess if I was that bosses boss I would tell him to shape up or ship out.
    This shop foreman is setting himself up for a fall. He may get the employees to work a different way, but the harsh words will start them thinking of some form of revenge. The hurt feelings will fester and, when the time comes, debts will be paid.

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    Econdron, you have answered your on question. Easily losing your temper quickly and often is not a good quality for leadership. Being firm but fair will generally yield better results. Not saying don't come down on someone when warranted. You may ride someone and get results but you can bet your ass you won't get their best efforts consistently. When i was fairly young a had a boss that rode my tail pretty hard, finally told him your gonna get off my ass and i really don't care what it takes. Bottom line there is a fine line between firmly leading and brow-beating. He may become a great manager but needs better control over his temper or he'll find that employee that responds in spades.

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    They fired a guy at work today, truck driver. Never late knew his job and did it very well. Cleaned every vehicle he drove inside and out. This is a construction company BTW. If he got to the job site to early to pick up the machine he stepped up grabbed a broom or shovel and helped the laborers. If there were two trucks on the job he'e help direct traffic to maintain a safe work place. Dispatcher respected him so did his coworkers. Except one. A woman. IMHO I think she's trying to get fired, violates unwritten company rules and does her best to piss everyone around her off. Because of the whole "Me Too" movement HR decided to get rid of him and keep her to avoid being sued. This happened today. Tomorrow morning when the others find out what happened the shits gonna hit the fan. Not only did she take food off this guys table she just dumped a shit load of work on the other two drivers. On top of it all she's not that good of a driver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dubeau View Post
    It's a fine line

    I grew up playing sports. It's normal in that environment to be "yelled at", encouraged, and be told you fucked up when you fucked up. It's not personal, it's just how it is. "Dubeau, you missed that fucking ground ball and 2 runs scored", sorry coach wont happen again. "Dubeau, you drilled these holes too big in those parts, and they're all fucking scrap" Sorry boss I'll pay more attention next time, and it won't happen again. Perhaps I'm just used to that way of thinking and being treated. It doesn't bother me one bit IF it's warranted. Be direct and to the point about the issue with me, and we'll work towards a solution. If you're an abusive dick about small meaningless petty things, or make things personal that don't need to be, then I'll give it right back to you. Firm, but fair. It's a fine line....
    Yes, but you wanted to play sports. You would "drop and give the coach 20" just to play eh ?
    Jobs are are getting better, and the employees you scream and yell at,
    might just go work for your competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmach10 View Post
    They fired a guy at work today, truck driver. Never late knew his job and did it very well. Cleaned every vehicle he drove inside and out. This is a construction company BTW. If he got to the job site to early to pick up the machine he stepped up grabbed a broom or shovel and helped the laborers. If there were two trucks on the job he'e help direct traffic to maintain a safe work place. Dispatcher respected him so did his coworkers. Except one. A woman. IMHO I think she's trying to get fired, violates unwritten company rules and does her best to piss everyone around her off. Because of the whole "Me Too" movement HR decided to get rid of him and keep her to avoid being sued. This happened today. Tomorrow morning when the others find out what happened the shits gonna hit the fan. Not only did she take food off this guys table she just dumped a shit load of work on the other two drivers. On top of it all she's not that good of a driver.
    My fishing buddy RJ would get fired right quick. He likes to tease the ladies. Most like it, some are embarrassed, but these "I felt offended" chicks would have a holler or two.

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    Make a required personal tool list, tools must be kept in working order etc.

    Make a grinder part of that list, if it doesn't work and they need it for the job. Then I guess they're not keeping stuff in working order.

    Write ups and tool replacement at your discretion.

    As for your foreman, you've talked to him once, he's held to a higher standard, either send him to classes or write him up.

    No one is worth keeping, if they're going to get you drug into court.

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    Good leaders are in churches all over the place ...

    Meaning the correct delivery can get great results.

    Many "new" leaders get up and bark orders but fail to participate.

    The better managers have employees that will do great deeds for their boss as they know the boss will be right in the mess with them.

    This guy needs some off site time with you where you can share some general expectations.

    You can create a guideline that while everyone is under the roof they assume they are in their church and act in accordance with church rules

    They can go to the parking lot to yell if they wish.

    Folks that are frustrated with how they are treated care less about work.

    Treat them like valued contributors and they will improve.

    This requires leadership and the leader needs to coach and lead the team.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yes, but you wanted to play sports. You would "drop and give the coach 20" just to play eh ?
    Jobs are are getting better, and the employees you scream and yell at,
    might just go work for your competition.
    Can't actually remember ever having a coach "make" me do push ups. While I did have a few asshole coaches over the years, most were pretty fair and reasonable. Most just wanted me to listen to them and give my best effort while I was there. Mistakes and poor performance was pointed out, and you'd talk about what you needed to do better. Now that I'm coaching my kids sports I approach it the same way. I'm not a dick, but I expect your attention and effort while you're here. If you can't give me that, than why are you here? I'm not a baby sitter. Listening to, and having respect for authority figures is a pretty important life skill IMO. Coachable kids are employable kids.

    People are free to work wherever they want. If you want to yell and scream at your employees like Paul Teutul Sr, then don't expect any good employees to stick around very long. But you can't have people constantly screw up with no recourse, throw tools on the ground, and have no respect for management or equipment while management looks the other way because they were afraid of confrontation. Like I said, It's a fine line between being too tough and hurting feelings, and being too lenient and letting the inmates run the asylum. Firm but fair. I'm not condoning the yelling and screaming at employees. But there has to be a respect for management and some discipline in a shop, or the good guys will get tired of doing all the work while the fog duckers game the system.

    This manager needs some proper/better training on how to deal with the situation in a more positive manor, and it sounds like this employee needs to stop being a pouty baby. Some fault lies with both party's IMO. Some people just aren't cut out to manage people. But the allure of extra $$ and promotion off the floor is strong. I'd rather manage machines and jobs, than manage people. While I enjoy coaching the kids, and find it very rewarding, there's no way I'd be happy managing a shop full of grown men.

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    The answer to this is pretty simple. It's not easy to find a good manager...so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Sit him down and tell him, "You do a good job and we respect/appreciate that. But, your foul language is dragging you down and is threatening your ability to make a go of it." Plain and simple. I wouldn't tell him he can't get mad...that's catering too much to the pussies who work for him (who can't take a well-deserved dressing down after doing something stupid). Being 'gentle' with stupid people is never a good policy...just ask Nevile Chamberlain how that worked out with Hitler.

    Give him a chance to clean up his language..that really has no place in the workplace. But otherwise, stand behind him.

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    Blue language come with the deal and job.
    That's no problem for me and should not be a whine on the floor.
    People simply use this an excuse for their frustrations and hurt.

    Now..... jumping down somebody's neck unneeded is a problem.
    It's not the foul language , It's the intent as perceived.
    Your foreman is a bit brutal as many tend to be but most will take that and shrug it off. (We all have bad days)
    I'm sure his line is what he thinks he is supposed to do.
    All good to go though 5-10 people until you find magic. Or help them.
    All people are different but why does your foreman apply this unneeded pressure? Do you foster this?

    When you promote from inside there is the whole "I should have gotten the job" thing and the poison that comes.
    Some would say that all competitors would be best to be terminated.
    Bob

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    I'm somehow reminded of the long-running "Bull of the Woods" cartoons. Your guy might have fit right in 50 years ago. I'd agree with the others, like Gregsy, who suggest you help him become a better manager for these times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Oh,Ok, so you are a dick, not that there is anything wrong with that, just understand who you are

    Also understand that the people who don't give a damn will stay and turn up the radio when your foreman yells, and the people with actual talent will go somewhere where they get respect.


    Your foreman has no reason to lose his temper over someone dropping something, that is just being a dick

    When one of his charges screws up a bunch of parts that your foreman promised you would be done today,knowing your customer would then be promised they would ship today, , maybe that is a reason to lose his temper. Maybe


    you see, your foreman is not showing strength, he is showing disrespect.

    If you do not know the difference, I cannot teach you

    Your employees I am going to guess, will be able to.
    Yep. After awhile, [my first job] the super started leaning on people - oldest first. All were marvelous moldmakers with easily marketed abilities. One left immediately, a couple more after 6 months or so. I also had reasonable confidence in my abilities, but stuck it out because treatment didn't outweigh running cool equipment, until one day.
    For an unknown reason I was bending a compression mold core instead of fabricating, according to his instructions. It began to look unsafe; being an 80 or 100 ton press, I backed away from his impatient pumping. I had been holding Kant-Twist's in position; get back here you f'n so and so. NO, I'm the one a foot away, not you. Ah s**t etc.; he couldn't have been concentrating.
    You're always asking questions, wondering about this and that...Yeah, I'm here to learn, but not this way.
    So what are going to do about it? he said.
    I'm going to show you why toolboxes have keys.


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