Thread: Shop Maintenance

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Curious to age? Even back in early 2000's Haas lathes (and mills) needed air to run. Can't say what it did on the lathe, as the toolsetters were manually operated when they first came out. Maybe air over hydraulic (or opposite? not sure how it works) for the turret index?

Lathes '93, '94, '97/8, 2001. Baruffaldi and Sauter electric turrets. VMC mid 90's.

Originally Posted by g-coder05

I understood it just fine. This is the "Shop Management and Owner Forum". and anyone who doesn't understand the value of compressed air in a "CNC" shop should not be in a position to manage a shop much less own one.

This topic would have been more suited for the General thread.

Not sure what your problem is with Therm and really don't care. This site is not the place to bring your personal problems to. You are right, PM has a serious problem and Don needs to get a handle on it soon. Ten years ago this would have been nipped on day one.

This sight is monetary driven and this is absolutely disrespectful to Don and quite frankly the rest of us here that prefer to work with one another. With each attack you post it is just an attack on your personal character. What exactly are you trying to gain?

dude was a bit rough, but i do feel where he's coming from. maybe its the fact that english is my 3rd language, but most times it is very difficult for me to understand thermite's ramblings... oh well.

All our turning centers have air-powered parts catchers except those only used for 2nd ops, and they all have blowguns.
But I can sure remember when the extra cost of extending the air lines factored directly into my paycheck. And that definitely qualifies the thread for inclusion in the Shop Owners forum.

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Curious to age? Even back in early 2000's Haas lathes (and mills) needed air to run. Can't say what it did on the lathe, as the toolsetters were manually operated when they first came out. Maybe air over hydraulic (or opposite? not sure how it works) for the turret index?

Mori Duraturn 25XX is Hydraulic turret lift, Hydraulic turret index, hydraulic chuck open/close, electric lube
Mori Duraturn 20xx Hydraulic lift, servo index, hydro chuck, electric lube
Those don't have a single air connection on them

Mori NL - Hydro lift ( actually it's a zero-lift so hydro unlock ), servo index, hydro chuck ( main and sub ), electric lube
It does have an air connection, but only for part eject on the sub, chip blow on main and sub and parts catcher up/down.
If you have no air, just jumper the pressure sensor and the machine isn't the wiser.

Haas SL series: Pneumatic turret lock/lift, so right outta the gate it does need air.

Originally Posted by Stirling

I think millennials have a buy once cry once. Always just have a newer unit vs older. Mentality. Thinking one newer is a better safety factor than 2-3 redundant items. (And they spend like a mother f'r. Remaining available credit is tjeir savjngs account....)
More of a no repair no hassle warranty.
Comes with the cheap disposable commodity mentality. And I get it. But there is lots of money to be saved buying used. I'm an 1984. So melennial but barely? I like used!

Unfortunatly I live in a norther smaller town, so used on neiche items is hard to come by. Working from a home garage shop my needs are neiche.
Needs to be as low draw as possible, but quality. Commodity items have killed this bracket imo.

Being "remote" most warrenty centres are 550km away. So even if it's warranty I have to pay a small
Fortune for the drive to and from, plus hotels and meal sub. It's a killer.
Do that a few times and it's the cost of a new kaiser air tower all over again..

As a millennial who loves vintage equipment, I think it comes down to something i noticed with my boss. He would rather spend the money on a new one than waste time trying to diagnose and fix our current one/a new one if needed. Just today I was boring out a hard emegency collet. He said "dont waste time, just go spend the 35 bucks for a new one."

A lot comes down to just not dealing with the hassel.

Hum.....well if you were boring out a "hard" "emergency" collet, that might explain a lot right there....

Originally Posted by Frater01

Just today I was boring out a hard emegency collet. He said "dont waste time, just go spend the 35 bucks for a new one."

A lot comes down to just not dealing with the hassel.

Some see hard, different than others, that is why there are "blue pills"

Originally Posted by Mike1974

Curious to age? Even back in early 2000's Haas lathes (and mills) needed air to run. Can't say what it did on the lathe, as the toolsetters were manually operated when they first came out. Maybe air over hydraulic (or opposite? not sure how it works) for the turret index?

Every lathe that I have ever used has been purely hydraulic, no air at all. Some Sauter turrets are purely electric and don't even need hydraulics.

Originally Posted by dkmc

Hum.....well if you were boring out a "hard" "emergency" collet, that might explain a lot right there....

Do it every week, Takes a few minutes.

A lot of talk about compressors here and I agree that having a backup is very important. Most shops are dead in the water without compressed air.
Probably the second most important piece of equipment in the shop is the saw unless all your stock is precut by the supplier.
In most shops the first order of operation is cutting the stock to length. When the saw is down, one by one the machines become idle until the saw is back in operation. Unlike fixing the air compressor where everything is back up and running the saw can only cut so fast so it takes a while before things are back to normal.
What maintenance have you done to your saw lately? Gearbox and hydraulic oil changed regularly? Blade guides and alignment been checked? Still cutting dead square and to correct length?
In a lot of shops the saw is the red headed step child, rode hard and put away wet. Not given a second thought till it's down.

Mr Bridgeport.

Originally Posted by dkmc

I've never understood the idea that screw compressors must run continuously and not be cycled on and off. As long as the oil comes up to a temperature that drives off moisture and condensate (>140F?) I can't see where start/stop cycling would be a problem?

IIRC something to doo with balanced loads, and the internal parts bumping into one another up start up.

Originally Posted by gregormarwick

Every lathe that I have ever used has been purely hydraulic, no air at all. Some Sauter turrets are purely electric and don't even need hydraulics.

Shut off the air to a Citizen and the whole thing lights up like a Christmas tree.

Originally Posted by Frater01

As a millennial who loves vintage equipment, I think it comes down to something i noticed with my boss. He would rather spend the money on a new one than waste time trying to diagnose and fix our current one/a new one if needed. Just today I was boring out a hard emegency collet. He said "dont waste time, just go spend the 35 bucks for a new one."

A lot comes down to just not dealing with the hassel.

Getting this right is a never ending task in life.
Last place I worked my cost to the company was probably around $100/hr. They would chastise me for wasting money ordering a $50 part, but were impressed when I spent 3 hours making one with $40 in material. So, $300 in labor that could be doing something else to save $10? Not such a good decision.

There is a time and a place for buying robust things, repairing them, and for simply walking over and punching a hole in something so you don't have to order the $100 one that already has a hole and doesn't show up for 3 days, but the balance is key.

I've had to make class X gauge pins, that are going to get used maybe a dozen times, on a worn lathe. It's good to know how to do this, but it's a lot better to plan in advance and buy one for $10 a couple days prior.

Originally Posted by digger doug

IIRC something to doo with balanced loads, and the internal parts bumping into one another up start up.

One reason I've heard, is insufficient oil temperature due to stopped condition cool down caused condensation and rusting. I don't really buy into that theory, but possibly if the compressor is outside in winter. Some screws, the rotors themselves touch and the driver drives the driven, with the benefit of a film of oil cushion. Other screws, have a gear set, and the rotors never touch. Balanced loads? I don't understand the reference.
But I'm all up for acknowledging a good reason and explanation of why screw compressors aren't supposed to run in start-stop mode.

Edit: I found this article that points to motor starts per hour as the issue with screw compressor run/stop mode problems. So monitor motor temps may be a good idea. And I suppose a VFD to reduce starting current could be another solution.
Choosing a Shop Air Compressor: Reciprocating or Screw Type? - Fluid Power Journal

Originally Posted by Mr Bridgeport

Probably the second most important piece of equipment in the shop is the saw unless all your stock is precut by the supplier. In most shops the first order of operation is cutting the stock to length. When the saw is down, one by one the machines become idle until the saw is back in operation. Unlike fixing the air compressor where everything is back up and running the saw can only cut so fast so it takes a while before things are back to normal.
What maintenance have you done to your saw lately? Gearbox and hydraulic oil changed regularly? Blade guides and alignment been checked? Still cutting dead square and to correct length?
In a lot of shops the saw is the red headed step child, rode hard and put away wet. Not given a second thought till it's down.
Mr Bridgeport.

Yes. I've seen many and purchased some saws over the years that were treated with less respect than the shop restroom. Most times, a special blade is fitted that has around 1000 teeth per inch. IOW, the finest tooth pitch blade available, and thats all that is used no matter what's being cut. Because the foreman got tired of buying courser blades that got stripped of teeth in short order.

I just recently bought a Doall 16" Metal Master from the remnants of Seneca Fallls Machine Group. 2 blades came with it, both were rounded off like someone was trying to cut hardened metal. The last person to try to use the saw with the dismal blade, must have been saying interesting and colorful words to it. I've got an 18" Grob, that has saw marks on the guides, and guards, that I can't explain how anyone could manage to get the blade in a position to make them.

One of my customers, years ago, asked me to look at their Doall horizontal saw. Somehow, an employee managed to get the blade on so the teeth were against the idler wheel flange, and it got cut completely off. I saved the wheel, by turning the blade contact surface down a bit, and created a new flange. Doall wanted $850 for the wheel. Bandsaws are very much abused in most shops.