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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWazowski View Post
    Where I lack the most skill is on the business side of things. Finding customers, quoting jobs, and accounting are where my biggest fears lie. I can make a part, but I've never had to sell one before.
    Before you spend ANY money, you need to decide if this is a hobby or a business.

    If it is a business, before you spend ANY money sit down and "interview" a few accountants. Listen to what they have to say. Get your business set up. (LLC). Pay a lawyer to write your articles and then file your paperwork with the state.

    Figure out what is required to have your business in your location. You will need permits and inspections. You will likely need a vendors license if you sell or do work for individuals, as collecting sales tax is required. If you do not, you are limited to tax exempt work with corporate entities.

    If you like Haas and that is your go to, buy a used Haas. Once your business is up and running and you have cash flow, then look at buying new. This also gives you time, and "organic" growth, to learn the market, learn what work you are going to do, acquire tooling etc.

    Keep as much cash as you can in reserves. That gives you the ability, when an opportunity comes along, to buy.

    I recently missed out on a smaller Fadal, that was in excellent condition with a 4th for $16k. Didn't have the cash.

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    There is a TM 2P for sale in machinery for sale or wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    What does the company that you own/work for actually make?
    What machines do you have to make these components on?
    Bump.Bump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    What does the company that you own/work for actually make?
    What machines do you have to make these components on?
    We make tooling and dies for automotive companies. We use VF Haas mills and Mori lathes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWazowski View Post
    We make tooling and dies for automotive companies. We use VF Haas mills and Mori lathes.
    Sorry squire but that was not addressed to you. I asked this of postee as9100d because he comes across as a vendor of ISO standards.
    So I repeat,BUMP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    What does the company that you own/work for actually make?
    What machines do you have to make these components on?
    We are a tier 2 aerospace CNC machine shop with primarily haas machines and some star swiss machines.

    We make all sorts of stuff, aerospace related as well as DOD related.

    Iso isn't just a bunch of paperwork, it's a culture everyone should strive for. Say what you're going to do and do it while proving you did it. Even if you adopt iso habits and never get the actual cert, you will be light-years ahead of your competition. That's a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    We are a tier 2 aerospace CNC machine shop with primarily haas machines and some star swiss machines.

    We make all sorts of stuff, aerospace related as well as DOD related.

    Iso isn't just a bunch of paperwork, it's a culture everyone should strive for. Say what you're going to do and do it while proving you did it. Even if you adopt iso habits and never get the actual cert, you will be light-years ahead of your competition. That's a fact.
    I was ISO certified and it was the biggest load of bullshit ever. The certifier came in, asked questions and then started to write up the certification. I made cams and form tools for screw machines and we made our own cam blanks,the bores of which are very tight limit. How do you check the bores in production? We use very close limit plug gauges. OK,and how do you check the plug gauges? I use a digital caliper. Show me a digital caliper. Oh yes,very good. That is just one example of the certification process. I passed with flying colours and was never visited again. ISO certification anyone?
    I was also informed that without certification I could not trade with certified companies. Once again, absolute rubbish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Sorry squire but that was not addressed to you. I asked this of postee as9100d because he comes across as a vendor of ISO standards.
    So I repeat,BUMP.
    Either that or he is a quality 'manager' that needs to justify his job. Everyone with an inkling of common sense knows ISO has nothing to with making quality parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    We are a tier 2 aerospace CNC machine shop with primarily haas machines and some star swiss machines.

    We make all sorts of stuff, aerospace related as well as DOD related.

    Iso isn't just a bunch of paperwork, it's a culture everyone should strive for. Say what you're going to do and do it while proving you did it. Even if you adopt iso habits and never get the actual cert, you will be light-years ahead of your competition. That's a fact.
    No No No.
    QUALITY is what you should be continually striving for, NOT ISO compliance bs.

    And this guy is why ISO systems fail. Some stupid procedure is written up, now you are trapped by it, and the quality manager types have their head up their ass trying to follow procedure for compliance, and to hell with if the part is good or not, or is efficient.

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    The only pro ISO people I knew were either making money off of it by being a consultant or an out of touch with reality upper level management type that would not know a VMC from a bandsaw. Something tells me our resident ISO fan has a side business consulting for ISO certifications or is striving to start one.

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    ISO/AS certification for a small shop can be either very easy and inexpensive or very hard and expensive. It mainly boils down to picking your registrar and auditor carefully. ISO/AS doesn't actually have very many hard requirements. If you choose an auditor that comes from the large aerospace/automotive world, your life will suck because the auditor will throw in a bunch of specific requirements that are overkill. If you choose an auditor that is good with small shops, life is easy.

    AS9100 doesn't require AS9102 paperwork. If you're doing AS9102 paperwork, that is either your company's internal decision or forced on you by a customer like Boeing. All AS9100 says is that: The organization shall use a representative item from the first production run of a new part or assembly to verify that the production processes, production documentation, and tooling are able to produce parts and assemblies that meet requirements. This activity shall be repeated when changes occur that invalidate the original results (e.g., engineering changes, production process changes, tooling changes).

    A real world example is my inspection procedure under AS9100D. It says that parts can either get a full inspection or just a fit and function check, i.e. bolt it together and see if it fits. That is perfectly AS9100 compliant. We're not doing AS9102 inspection reports, because it's not the right fit for the work I do.

    The standards are pretty wide open, you just have to say what you're going to do and then do it. The standards don't generally force you into a specific way of doing things.

    As far as cost, it's pretty minimal for a small shop if you've worked in an ISO/AS shop before and have some idea of how you want your workflow. For example, paper travellers, grey bins, and labelled shelves. When I got my AS9100, the hard costs were ~10k and my recurring costs average a few thousand a year for audits. I put about 3 days a year into audits/paperwork. Initial setup/certification audit was probably a good 2-3 weeks of my time.

    All that being said, only you can determine if the piece of paper is worth a few thousand dollars. If the additional jobs it opens up pay for the cert, then do it. If not, don't. Regardless of whether you get the cert, a lot of the processes are worth putting in place. For example, you need a way to track jobs (e.g. traveller), a way to do inspection, a way to get your tools calibrated, maintenance on your mill, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    The only pro ISO people I knew were either making money off of it by being a consultant or an out of touch with reality upper level management type that would not know a VMC from a bandsaw. Something tells me our resident ISO fan has a side business consulting for ISO certifications or is striving to start one.
    I have no desire to consult for money dude. It's helped put company grow and stay organized. That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    .

    Iso isn't just a bunch of paperwork, it's a culture everyone should strive for. Say what you're going to do and do it while proving you did it. Even if you adopt iso habits and never get the actual cert, you will be light-years ahead of your competition. That's a fact.
    But it's not really a fact though is it...
    I've seen a few non-ISO companies that knocked the spots off some ISO certified companies for organisation and quality of product.

    Fact is, there's plenty of great companies out there with no approvals, and plenty of shit ones with approvals.
    I always remember asking one auditor where he'd been the previous day, and he said "Alexander Palace".
    I said "oh, what exhibition did you go and see?"
    He replied "didn't, I was there auditing a food/burger van".
    To be fair, this was for 1401 environmental, but yesterday burgers, today Aerospace...

    But I get where you're coming from.
    If you have structure and organisation from the start, that will be easier to manage and help you grow.
    And as every day ticks buy, more and more purchasing depts insist you have to be ISO approved to get the work.

    But that's only because lazy fat arse Quality Managers don't get off their backsides and properly audit/approve companies nowadays...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    But it's really a fact though is it...
    I've seen a few non-ISO companies that knocked the spots off some ISO certified companies for organisation and quality of product.

    Fact is, there's plenty of great companies out there with no approvals, and plenty of shit ones with approvals.
    I always remember asking one auditor where he'd been the previous day, and he said "Alexander Palace".
    I said "oh, what exhibition did you go and see?"
    He replied "didn't, I was there auditing a food/burger van".
    To be fair, this was for 1401 environmental, but yesterday burgers, today Aerospace...

    But I get where you're coming from.
    If you have structure and organisation from the start, that will be easier to manage and help you grow.
    And as every day ticks buy, more and more purchasing depts insist you have to be ISO approved to get the work.

    But that's only because lazy fat arse Quality Managers don't get off their backsides and properly audit/approve companies nowadays...
    I agree. Plenty of folks with out it that are great and plenty with it that are shit. The idea is that if you have an iso type plan in place and follow it regardless of the paid audits, you stand a better chance for stability and growth in your business.

    Iso habits don't have to be difficult, see with 6s. We do it every day and it makes for a great place to work for a multitude of reasons

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWazowski View Post
    Per your question, toolmaker96, I set up and run every program I write. Where I lack the most skill is on the business side of things. Finding customers, quoting jobs, and accounting are where my biggest fears lie. I can make a part, but I've never had to sell one before.
    As someone who spent 10 years as a machinist/programmer, then jumped into sales for (2) different sales companies, and now back in the shop, I would highly suggest you get a sales job just to learn some of those skills & experience. (It could be moonlighting in a commission-based retail sales job for that matter.) This was perhaps the best 3 year education I could have ever asked for, and I got paid the whole time, and acquired zero commercial debt or student loans along the way. It was an absolute eye-opener, and I am eternally grateful for the experience.

    There is a humungous rift between the thoughts of "I want to establish & grow a profitable business" vs. the "I want to buy some machines, start a shop & make things" trains of thought.

    I feel that a lot of people asking for "starting a shop" advice on this forum (and I was one of them a few years ago) don't understand the huge contrast between making parts in your own shop, vs. selling enough ***something*** to pay all of your bills, make enough profit to pay yourself a decent living wage, and also continue grow the business. #2 require a huge effing number...

    I would not want to learn #2, while I was clueless, had a huge pile of commercial debt on my shoulders, and was 100% dependent on my new startup for living expenses too... Obviously doing this part time, while keeping the full time gig is helpful. I would also suggest used machinery and minimal capital investment up front, so that you can preserve cash too.



    But, go try to sell something, and use that as feedback as to weather you want a hobby shop, or a business shop...

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    I was ISO certified and it was the biggest load of bullshit ever. The certifier came in, asked questions and then started to write up the certification. I made cams and form tools for screw machines and we made our own cam blanks,the bores of which are very tight limit. How do you check the bores in production? We use very close limit plug gauges. OK,and how do you check the plug gauges? I use a digital caliper...
    Ha!!!
    Quick story where I did my apprenticeship (Aerospace Instrumentation/Black Box design/maker/seller) we had 4x ex-Dehaviland Aerospace apprentices.
    One was the Works Director, one was Chief Drafty, one was the chief design engineer (to this day, THE best guy I'd worked with). All top notch first class guys.
    And then there was the Chief Inspector. I can only assume he was on long-term sick or repeatedly fell asleep during his time.
    Anyway, we did everything we could in-house, including gauge calibration.
    The bowers bore mics were annually calibrated using the "in the box" ring gauge.
    The "in the box" ring gauge, had a separate gauge number, and was annually calibrated using the bowers bore mic...
    We were CAA approved...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Ha!!!
    Quick story where I did my apprenticeship (Aerospace Instrumentation/Black Box design/maker/seller) we had 4x ex-Dehaviland Aerospace apprentices.
    One was the Works Director, one was Chief Drafty, one was the chief design engineer (to this day, THE best guy I'd worked with). All top notch first class guys.
    And then there was the Chief Inspector. I can only assume he was on long-term sick or repeatedly fell asleep during his time.
    Anyway, we did everything we could in-house, including gauge calibration.
    The bowers bore mics were annually calibrated using the "in the box" ring gauge.
    The "in the box" ring gauge, had a separate gauge number, and was annually calibrated using the bowers bore mic...
    We were CAA approved...
    My story to a T basically. But then you have to spoil it by saying chief inspector (note my lowercase, your upper case) perhaps we should both have used nut case. I have worked with very few chief inspectors who had the slightest whit of common sense,I think it was surgically removed when they hatched. Common or garden ordinary everyday Inspectors(uppercase)no problem but the main man,what a prize prat. The best one of all,had he caught fire,no I would not. Had he not caught fire then.....

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    Had a part made by a local machine shop, they are ISO. Thy have done a little work for me and I had given the lead man my cell. I get a phone call from the machinist making my parts. He’s obviously flustered, and tells me he has some problems with the part and I need to come in. This part is stupid simple, nothing complex, wide open tolerances. I didn’t want to drive there, but the machinist explains there is a problem with the part and blueprint. Quality wouldn’t sign off on the part.

    I drive over and go in to talk to the machinist. He shows me the part, just from looking at it, I say, “Run em”. He laughs and says, “oh I can’t, because the part is out of dimension, it doesn’t match the print.” What?! He hands me a mic and points at the blueprint. There was no over all length on the blueprint. I had made the blueprint point to point, because I knew it would be made on a Mazak, programmed at the control. I didn’t dimension the chamfer and part off because IT DID NOT MATTER. But since there was no dimension, the part couldn’t be to print. The ISO quality guy wouldn’t sign off on his first piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Had a part made by a local machine shop, they are ISO. Thy have done a little work for me and I had given the lead man my cell. I get a phone call from the machinist making my parts. He’s obviously flustered, and tells me he has some problems with the part and I need to come in. This part is stupid simple, nothing complex, wide open tolerances. I didn’t want to drive there, but the machinist explains there is a problem with the part and blueprint. Quality wouldn’t sign off on the part.

    I drive over and go in to talk to the machinist. He shows me the part, just from looking at it, I say, “Run em”. He laughs and says, “oh I can’t, because the part is out of dimension, it doesn’t match the print.” What?! He hands me a mic and points at the blueprint. There was no over all length on the blueprint. I had made the blueprint point to point, because I knew it would be made on a Mazak, programmed at the control. I didn’t dimension the chamfer and part off because IT DID NOT MATTER. But since there was no dimension, the part couldn’t be to print. The ISO quality guy wouldn’t sign off on his first piece.

    Butbutbut ISO is so much better. It's a good thing he wouldn't sign off or you would have scrap parts now. You should be thanking them!

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    ISO is a standardization of things not a bad habit to have in any shop period. Now are the audits worth the money and time maybe maybe not. Some people complain about the smallest thing and some take it with a grain of salt. Everything in manufacturing like assembly, machining, stamping, injection, forming, bending, and so on all have prints they all have standards. Just like measurements have standards in any form, money has standards, driving in different countries have different standards, the language you speak has standards, etc... So no matter how many say its BS and complain. Oh well go to WalMart and get a job ISO is a standard and is regulated just like anything. So if you make it a habit then you can do work with any shop that follows it. Plus some customers or other shops will know that they can work with you because you follow the standard and have paper work and the ISO credit. If you want to do it or you don't want to who cares its your shop.

    Founded on 23 February 1947, the organization promotes worldwide proprietary, industrial and commercial standards

    Seven Quality Management Principles behind ISO9001 requirements
    QMP1 – Customer Focus. ...
    QMP2 – Leadership Importance of Top Management. ...
    QMP3 – Engagement of People. ...
    QMP4 – The Process Approach. ...
    QMP5 – Improvement. ...
    QMP6 – Evidence-based decision making. ...
    QMP7 – Relationship Management.

    In addition, components such as cup holders and cell phone trays are seen and touched by the customer multiple times every day. Consumers expect and deserve these products to be perfectly molded with the highest quality materials. Consumers also assume these products will provide beauty and function properly for the life of the vehicle. Producing products to ISO and customer-specified standards helps ensure that the end user will remain satisfied over long periods of time.


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