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  1. #81
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    I'll say it again, the guy arguing for a "complete ISO/AS environment" has that screen name. I'll take that as "proof" he has something to gain from it, nothing related to quality.

    My argument, and see it how you want, is ISO and quality do NOT go hand-in-hand. ISO is a system of 'rules' that you follow, which may or may not be related to actual quality of the parts you make. Quality is quality. I would much rather my supplier call me with a question such as " hey we are finding xx dimension to be right at the low limit*, does it matter/can it be 'fudged'/do we need to inspect it further (to tenths or whatever)" etc, than to reject them, delaying my parts, and possibly increasing the cost next time because they found a ?potential? to lose money...

    * I know mr as9100d's shop would NEVER make such a mistake, but in the real world it happens.

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  3. #82
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    Good thing this thread has remained on topic....................

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I would much rather my supplier call me with a question such as " hey we are finding xx dimension to be right at the low limit*, does it matter/can it be 'fudged'/do we need to inspect it further (to tenths or whatever)" etc, than to reject them, delaying my parts, and possibly increasing the cost next time because they found a ?potential? to lose money...
    If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.

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  7. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'll say it again, the guy arguing for a "complete ISO/AS environment" has that screen name. I'll take that as "proof" he has something to gain from it, nothing related to quality.
    I am pretty sure that is 99.99% correct, no matter what he says. On the other hand there are something like 330 million people in the USA, so there are plenty of weirdos that like things most people don't and without reason. I once had an employee who thought Rosie O'Donnell was hot looking and he was straight and a Republican.

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    Back on trrack.........my advice is to get a job in a small shop for at least 12 months,where you will be in touch with the problems,and pitfalls of a shop........funny thing thing is ..you will say...."how does this guy stay in business"......the answer is contacts,friends,and a network of like minded people built up over years.......they help each other when a machine breaks down,or needs a specialized bit of gear,or a couple of hours on a big machine........without this you wont get past go.......IMHO,the big demand now is for CNC repairers who can actually fix something so it works......and also retrofit and get operational older machines........there a lot of these that have done no work,but the controll is obsolete.This is where the opportunities lie ,not jobbing work for low quote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.
    Bingo. Not sure why folks blame iso and then get upset when they go out of business when they have a health issue come up and can't micro manage their shop. 🙄 Thank God I never have to worry about that!

  11. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Back on trrack.........my advice is to get a job in a small shop for at least 12 months,where you will be in touch with the problems,and pitfalls of a shop........funny thing thing is ..you will say...."how does this guy stay in business"......the answer is contacts,friends,and a network of like minded people built up over years.......they help each other when a machine breaks down,or needs a specialized bit of gear,or a couple of hours on a big machine........without this you wont get past go.......IMHO,the big demand now is for CNC repairers who can actually fix something so it works......and also retrofit and get operational older machines........there a lot of these that have done no work,but the controll is obsolete.This is where the opportunities lie ,not jobbing work for low quote.
    Craigslist worked for me. Posted one ad years ago and it got me a customer that did offload work for boeing. Some time after, we were introduced to as9100d and madcap certs and we're had the option to get them and get more work from this customer. Once we had them it was a piece of cake to get real tier 1 aerospace work. Fast forward today we are a fairly large shop with close to 60 employees. So maybe posting an ad on Craigslist would also be a good start.

  12. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.
    No it's not on ME. I did not write the procedure, I don't get to decide which 'rules' I can or can't follow. THAT is the whole point.

    But you do you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Good thing this thread has remained on topic....................
    C'mon! IF a thread is on topic for more than a full page it is a win.

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    You know what is amusing about this ISO vs Quality (ah hemmm) discussion... *everyone* has a horror story about ISO, but no one can list a single thing ISO/AS has really brought to the table other than the "I win more jobs/ we make less scrap (*cough*bullshit*cough*)" How about a single incident where ISO did something? I can name a few negatives right off the bat-

    1) rejecting parts that are literally tenths out on a pin that means nothing (we did the ass'y so I know what the function was)
    2) accepting parts that were out of print, even though we have "incoming inspections" * (ironically part of the same ass'y that our jackass inspector rejected for the pins!)
    3) assigning tools to a workstation (not necessarily a bad idea internally, but with no flexibility it's STUPID AF!)
    4) un-qualified inspectors. once was struggling to get a job running and come to find out the "quality inspector" was clamping one single toe clamp on the end of the part and "screwing" (twisting back and forth / forcing) the gage pin in AFTER doing the alignment on cmm!

    *included that one because our policy (not quality again) only required an inspection cert or something stupid, not an actual inspection for part conformance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    You know what is amusing about this ISO vs Quality (ah hemmm) discussion... *everyone* has a horror story about ISO, but no one can list a single thing ISO/AS has really brought to the table other than the "I win more jobs/ we make less scrap (*cough*bullshit*cough*)" How about a single incident where ISO did something?
    Back decades ago working for the man it used to make work fun and exciting when we violated procedure right under the company's ISO coordinator or whatever the hell he was. At my last job working for the man the 25 employee shop had a full time guy who was the ISO man. Most all the procedure violations that were committed on purpose were my doing. They involved using manual machines that were for maintenance department use only for production. No way I was going to have a guy set up a 7 axis Swiss to make 4 small spacers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I think you didn't read anything I said... Iso habits are far different than iso certs and audits. Iso habits from day one will make everything more effecient.
    I don't think so.

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    this is where in left field it is now from the real question at hand and everyone is now


    choose wisely sorry had to do it.

    If you start a shop just make each move cautiously and think about the pros and cons. It is hard work and will take a lot of commitment, but if its your dream go for it.

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  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselMater86 View Post
    If you start a shop just make each move cautiously and think about the pros and cons. It is hard work and will take a lot of commitment, but if its your dream go for it.
    Great post

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWazowski View Post
    Hi all,



    -What kind of machines are best to start out with?


    Thanks
    How about we get this guy some machines to actually produce parts before we spend another 3 pages arguing about ISO stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWazowski View Post
    Hi all,

    -What kind of machines are best to start out with?
    Well ok then, on that note, a cheap one. With a toolchanger...

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  24. #97
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    The longer I'm around as business owner the more I'm starting to think the secret to being successful is just staying in business. Seems like the longer you're around the more people know about your products and services and you simply gain work by outlasting the other guys.

    I used to be the first guy to jump into the deep end of the pool with the rocks and sharks. It sometimes pays off, but it can also completely fuck your world over. It's always the unforeseen that will crush your wallet. Thinking it all through very carefully and making sure your business isn't a house of cards.

    I think psychopaths have a pretty good leg up on the competition too. The guys who don't give 2 shits about their families and employees seem to do well.

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  26. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I think psychopaths have a pretty good leg up on the competition too. The guys who don't give 2 shits about their families and employees seem to do well.
    You've noticed that too!?

    Over the years I have seen other businesses that the owners sell crap products, treat their customers and employees like crap, but just ooze success. Can't figure it out. Must be a the free swag they give out?

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    Has anyone thought about applying ISO/AS to a hot dog cart?

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    As you are finding out right now anyone who's run machines and has credit or a savings account can get into the machining game. I'd be looking for something to differentiate yourself from every other guy with 1 machine in his garage.

    If you haven't read wheelie king's thread on here about starting a shop with 1 machine it would be a great place to start.

    If you haven't started a list of what you think you'll need to get the machine up and running I'd start a budget now. Things can be bought as you go along but for a while some jobs may just pay for the tooling/ inspection equipment.

    The machine is often times the cheap part. I just bought a used hobby grade mill and lathe. Between new and used tooling, some support equipment, everything to get the machines wired with air and leveled/ well lit, and some tools I didn't have I bet I will have spent what I paid for the 2 machines before I make a chip. I all ready had things like some inspection tools, a saw, air compressor, nice vise on a work bench, hand tools out the ying yang, hand power tools, ect.


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