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    Default Tarrifs

    Did y'all see in the current issue of Modern Machine Shop?
    I like to think that you have already read this from your own issue - as everyone here should have a subscription, but ....

    Double click the page for size control.

    Modern Machine Shop Modern Machine Shop - March 2020 Page 14


    I just don't understand the thinking behind targeted industries when it comes to tarrifs.

    Why is "this or that" any more of a concern than some other line item?
    I guess b/c someone has an "in" or a lobbyist?
    Kind'a hard to bankroll a lobyist for your cause when you are already trying to compete with the yellow man.

    It does maybe bring about a bit of hope at least - I guess?


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    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Did y'all see in the current issue of Modern Machine Shop?

    ...

    Kind'a hard to bankroll a lobyist for your cause when you are already trying to compete with the yellow man.

    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Now would that be all yellow men? How about the brown men? Everywhere or those just just West and south of the United States border?


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    Never heard of a tarrif before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Did y'all see in the current issue of Modern Machine Shop?
    I like to think that you have already read this from your own issue - as everyone here should have a subscription, but ....

    Double click the page for size control.

    Modern Machine Shop Modern Machine Shop - March 2020 Page 14


    I just don't understand the thinking behind targeted industries when it comes to tarrifs.

    Why is "this or that" any more of a concern than some other line item?
    I guess b/c someone has an "in" or a lobbyist?
    Kind'a hard to bankroll a lobyist for your cause when you are already trying to compete with the yellow man.

    It does maybe bring about a bit of hope at least - I guess?


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Follow the Money, especially when it comes to lobbyists.Its hard sometimes though.
    My family has been in the can sugar business for years and has watched as the evil "sugar industry" looses control/ market sharge to the corn farmers over HFCS with subsidies and tarrifs. What it boils down to is that sugarcane is only grown commercially now in LA and FL, I think Hawaii is out or on the way out anyway so that only gets basically two states fighting for us in congress. COrn however is grown in pretty much the entire lower 48 so it has a huge lobby. You never hear of people trying to import corn into the US because of the strong lobby much less subsidies for growing corn for Ethanol even though sugarcane produces 5 times the amount of ethanol per dollar than corn. But "evil Sugar" gets all the bad press for causing obesity, diabetes, etc when its HFCS that is in 90% of the food you buy.

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    All I know is the tariffs on metal were removed months ago, price of scrap is way down last 6 months or so, and raw material still is still nearly at tariff price, only down a few % but no where near back to pre-tariff price.
    Then again many of us probably won't be buying much of it for a while...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    All I know is the tariffs on metal were removed months ago, price of scrap is way down last 6 months or so, and raw material still is still nearly at tariff price, only down a few % but no where near back to pre-tariff price.
    Then again many of us probably won't be buying much of it for a while...
    I have seen the same steel prices for almost 2 years now. Steady and cheap. Great for us.

    I also spoke to a couple of my swiss shops this week and they are all still busier than ever. Just this week I got 3 new customers and got 7 new jobs (nothing big). This virus has shut down many and made many others busier than ever.

    I see manufacturing here in America as stronger than ever before. As soon as others are allowed to get back to work they will also be busier than ever. This little slowdown due to the virus is going to make American industry even stronger. More and more people see how the supply chain works now that medical supplies are needed and not always made here and easily accessible. More shops are re-tooling to make med supplies in this market and people are seeing it first hand that we can make anything we want to if we put our energy into it.

    I see this slowdown as a big plus in the overall scheme of things. Anyone who is "not essential" and having income problems should look into different career paths to make sure they dont get into these jams in the future. Unfortunately Most will not and just complain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    I have seen the same steel prices for almost 2 years now. Steady and cheap. Great for us.

    I also spoke to a couple of my swiss shops this week and they are all still busier than ever. Just this week I got 3 new customers and got 7 new jobs (nothing big). This virus has shut down many and made many others busier than ever.

    I see manufacturing here in America as stronger than ever before. As soon as others are allowed to get back to work they will also be busier than ever. This little slowdown due to the virus is going to make American industry even stronger. More and more people see how the supply chain works now that medical supplies are needed and not always made here and easily accessible. More shops are re-tooling to make med supplies in this market and people are seeing it first hand that we can make anything we want to if we put our energy into it.

    I see this slowdown as a big plus in the overall scheme of things. Anyone who is "not essential" and having income problems should look into different career paths to make sure they dont get into these jams in the future. Unfortunately Most will not and just complain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    I have seen the same steel prices for almost 2 years now. Steady and cheap. Great for us.
    I take it that you are a bit young, so let me give you a history lesson here:

    2004 was a shake-up year on steel prices, and what high volume metal business the 2001 move to china didn't put out of business, the 2004 metal price [scandal?] came through to clean house aggin.

    For 15 years prior that I know of, and ??? before that - metal - especially steel - prices were flat, and only moved around maybe $.02 during a years time, only to return the next year. In bundle qtys from the cold draw mills, you could buy 1215 for say - $.39/$.40, and 12L for a $.02 premium. I could buy hex 360 brass for $1.25.

    Then along came 2004, and China was building whole cities from scratch, and they sucked up all kinds of metals. Steel doubled in 6 months, and red metals doubled in 6 weeks. High volume jobs like multi-spindle screw machines, stampings, and cold heading - typically use 50% material costs in their products, depending of course on size and complexity of the part, but...

    Metal prices had always been flat for the most part, and no-one gave any thought to include wording in blanket order quotes about metal price fluctuation. And many of the rest of the business folded as now the cost of the part was the same as the cost of the material. Some customers allowed a surcharge - knowing of course that the suppler couldn't run like that, and when they go out of business in 2 months, no-one else is going to run it at that price either. But it seems that there are a lot of short sighted purchasing agents, or customers in general, and many wouldn't accept it, and there were more auctions.

    The price of metals has come down a bit since then, but that $.41 bundle is now - what - maybe $.70 after they get all done with the scarp surcharge and all BS?


    It's not "cheap", and it's not been nearly as steady as it was back-in-the-day.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    ..... But it seems that there are a lot of short sighted purchasing agents, or customers in general, and many wouldn't accept it, and there were more auctions.

    Ox
    Yes.
    What I used to get was hold your price and you get the blanket, raise the one penny on one item and we will quote the entire world against you on all your work.
    There is almost always another source and someone hungry to get in.
    Some customers/PAs true to their long time sources, others not at all.
    I call this the Ignacio Lopez syndrome. Still many loyal followers.

    When I complained about this practice and said that it was killing long term suppliers and support I was told flat out "We bankrupt a few companies every week, where do you want to be".
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I call this the Ignacio Lopez syndrome.
    Oh Jesus .... I haven't heard that name in years ! Now I'm going to have nightmares.

    Thanks, Bob

    btw, do you know Reef-Baker ? Had friends there ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Yes.
    What I used to get was hold your price and you get the blanket, raise the one penny on one item and we will quote the entire world against you on all your work.
    There is almost always another source and someone hungry to get in.
    Some customers/PAs true to their long time sources, others not at all.
    I call this the Ignacio Lopez syndrome. Still many loyal followers.

    When I complained about this practice and said that it was killing long term suppliers and support I was told flat out "We bankrupt a few companies every week, where do you want to be".
    Bob
    Had a Tier 1 ask me to quote a job many moons ago.
    "Here's what we are paying for it now."
    I knew the part.
    I knew where it was made.
    I knew what it was made on.
    And I knew that he had been running it for years, and had just received a new blanket for it recently.

    I decided to never quote a job to them ever if that was how they wanted to conduct business.


    Had another Tier 1 ask me for a quote a cpl years ago.
    Part was basically sketched on a [clean] napkin.
    Asked about part feasibility while they were in engineering stages.
    No tols, no finishes, no material spec yet....

    So I gave them a starting point price - if this, that, and the other feature is bla bla....

    Then the fella wants a formal quote, not just a starting point - on a half baked print.
    ???

    Then he goes on to explain that I need to sign his paperwork with fine print.
    So I read through his fine print.

    It says that while I am quoting delivery to Toledo, Ohio, if the delivery point changes - the price stays the same.
    It says that if the cost of material goes up - the price stays the same.

    I didn't need to read any further than that....

    I explained to the fella (phone) that I had been through 2004, and that there is absolutely no way on Gods green earth that I would ever sign anything stating that I would hold price - should the world around me fall to pieces. Pretty sure he was in grade skewl in 2004, so he likely didn't even know what I meant....

    He told me that "we don't have any suppliers losing money right now."




    I like automotive qtys, and we ran a lot of it in the 90's, but I'm not agreeing to something that is beyond falling on my sword.


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    The BK some suppliers every xx was quite common in auto.

    Smart guys do lateral avoidance.
    And most auto purchasers are dicks, but only on company time.
    Reasonable deals can be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I take it that you are a bit young, so let me give you a history lesson here:

    2004 was a shake-up year on steel prices, and what high volume metal business the 2001 move to china didn't put out of business, the 2004 metal price [scandal?] came through to clean house aggin.

    For 15 years prior that I know of, and ??? before that - metal - especially steel - prices were flat, and only moved around maybe $.02 during a years time, only to return the next year. In bundle qtys from the cold draw mills, you could buy 1215 for say - $.39/$.40, and 12L for a $.02 premium. I could buy hex 360 brass for $1.25.

    Then along came 2004, and China was building whole cities from scratch, and they sucked up all kinds of metals. Steel doubled in 6 months, and red metals doubled in 6 weeks. High volume jobs like multi-spindle screw machines, stampings, and cold heading - typically use 50% material costs in their products, depending of course on size and complexity of the part, but...

    Metal prices had always been flat for the most part, and no-one gave any thought to include wording in blanket order quotes about metal price fluctuation. And many of the rest of the business folded as now the cost of the part was the same as the cost of the material. Some customers allowed a surcharge - knowing of course that the suppler couldn't run like that, and when they go out of business in 2 months, no-one else is going to run it at that price either. But it seems that there are a lot of short sighted purchasing agents, or customers in general, and many wouldn't accept it, and there were more auctions.

    The price of metals has come down a bit since then, but that $.41 bundle is now - what - maybe $.70 after they get all done with the scarp surcharge and all BS?


    It's not "cheap", and it's not been nearly as steady as it was back-in-the-day.


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    Ox
    Yeah I was a senior in High School in 2004. Wasnt interested in working in the machine shop and sure as hell wasnt interested in steel pricing.

    I only have gotten into the material supply chain in the last year. Pricing was always different leading up to the tarrifs from 2 years ago. I have seen steels level out recently but .03-.05/lb isnt a swing for me. I feel like I have seen .69-1.20/lb in the last 10 years for cold drawn.

    I put right on my quotes that material pricing is good for xxx amount of days. I would never agree to take a loss due to pricing changes. If the customer wants to pay for the material to lock in pricing then thats fine with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Never heard of a tarrif before.
    Surely you jest!

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Surely you jest!

    Tom

    Prolly fussin' about how I spelled sumpthin' - or ???


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I call this the Ignacio Lopez syndrome.
    Bob
    Okay, I'm lost. Who or what is Ignacio Lopez????

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphonso View Post
    Okay, I'm lost. Who or what is Ignacio Lopez????
    I think his last name was Arriotura or close ? I'll let Carbide describe the man, otherwise you'll have to listen to another rant

    But if you believe in the Devil ? At the very least, a son-in-law ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Surely you jest!

    Tom
    I've heard of a tariff but not a tarrif.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akajun View Post
    Follow the Money, especially when it comes to lobbyists.Its hard sometimes though.
    My family has been in the can sugar business for years and has watched as the evil "sugar industry" looses control/ market sharge to the corn farmers over HFCS with subsidies and tarrifs. What it boils down to is that sugarcane is only grown commercially now in LA and FL, I think Hawaii is out or on the way out anyway so that only gets basically two states fighting for us in congress. COrn however is grown in pretty much the entire lower 48 so it has a huge lobby. You never hear of people trying to import corn into the US because of the strong lobby much less subsidies for growing corn for Ethanol even though sugarcane produces 5 times the amount of ethanol per dollar than corn. But "evil Sugar" gets all the bad press for causing obesity, diabetes, etc when its HFCS that is in 90% of the food you buy.
    That post id hysterically funny.

    The overwhelming reason for the growth in HFCS is because you sugar guys stopped imports so effectively so that your controlled market price went stupid. HFCS is the domestic competition.

    You deserve it and if you go broke, fine. After all I don't see you & others looking to remove tariffs & quotas off of overseas sugar so your complaint is just hypocrisy.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    That post id hysterically funny.

    The overwhelming reason for the growth in HFCS is because you sugar guys stopped imports so effectively so that your controlled market price went stupid. HFCS is the domestic competition.

    You deserve it and if you go broke, fine. After all I don't see you & others looking to remove tariffs & quotas off of overseas sugar so your complaint is just hypocrisy.

    PDW
    You bring up US sugar tariffs from time to time. A good example of something screwed up but kind of a unique case. The US doesn’t really have any domestic cane production. They grew quite a bit of cane in Hawaii and all was good until Hawaii became a state in 1959. After that the cane growers had to comply with US labor laws and wages which slowly put them out of business. The tariffs were an attempt to keep them in business, seems like a legitimate use, but as always the tariffs didn’t work. Now they are a legacy. So what exactly is your point? We should pull the tariffs, buy our sugar from overseas, and let the few remaining producers tank. Might as well at this point, it’s what happens in a global economy.


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