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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Not a fan of either label.

    NRA? Loved getting my NRA "Sharpshooter" qualification as a kid. These days I'd count the NRA as an organization that's broken.
    Right there with ya' on that^^^^^^^^^^^

    I quit the gun guys when they wouldn't stop calling me at diner time for more money.

    Then I REALLY started disliking their tactics when they kneejerked their way thru Columbine, Sandy Hook and the like.

    I actually thought they knew better....I was wrong.

    rant off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
    Right there with ya' on that^^^^^^^^^^^

    I quit the gun guys when they wouldn't stop calling me at diner time for more money.

    Then I REALLY started disliking their tactics when they kneejerked their way thru Columbine, Sandy Hook and the like.

    I actually thought they knew better....I was wrong.

    rant off.
    I thought I was the only one....Good to hear from others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    I thought I was the only one....Good to hear from others.
    Now there's at least 3 of us.

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    Give Bill Gates credit as he gives a lot of money to worthy causes..but computers save so many man hours and put so many out of work hours.. ]

    CNC is robot aided. Guess all the on shop computers owe us some tax money.

    Yes the ones at home just waste those hours so it likely comes out even.

    Down the pike the 5 hour day and 25 hour week will be the legal limit, along with a 100 thousand dollar cap on wages.

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    A colleague sent me this -- and it's spot on for this topic of taxing robots -- and using truck drivers as a prime example:

    YouTube

    The video is libertarian-leaning ex judo champ Joe Rogan interviewing Andrew Yang. The first 15 minutes are maybe worth watching.

    Yang's points:

    - We're already starting to automate near half our jobs, starting with truck drivers. The average truck driver is white, male, 49 years old, high school grad. He isn't going to get retraining as something like a software programmer. In fact, current retraining programs are 0-15% effective at best. So what happens to these people? And others to follow (sales clerks, cashiers . . .)?

    - He thinks we ought to have a small basic guaranteed income for each citizen, paid by a value-added tax (these days mostly on tech companies). You don't get to double dip with other welfare, disability, etc. So, it's sort of like an automation tax (value added instead) and it goes to citizens sort of like each Alaska resident gets an energy dividend. According to Wang, hi tech is the new "oil." And a value-added tax at about half the European level would fund it - thus assuring that little-to-no-tax companies like Apple, Facebook, and Amazon wouldn't go scot free.

    - Later he points out that we're replacing old jobs about 3-4x faster than during the Industrial Revolution and there were riots from the displaced back then. Could be a bumpy ride ahead if we don't figure this out?

    - Later he also notes how job insecurity is taking a toll (fewer marriages, less mobility, fewer able to afford a home, more drugs & suicides, lower life expectancy, greater inequality, new business formation at a 30 year low, etc.).

    - While I doubt voters will buy his notion of a small guaranteed income (and I'm skeptical on two fronts), he lays out some compelling points. Which later he said politicians said "we can't talk about that."

    - One of my skepticisms is what a small dividend to each citizen would do. He thinks it would put more cash into small towns, make more entrepreneurs viable, and have people more willing to take start-up risks knowing they wouldn't starve. Dunno. There are a couple experiments going on on that front.

    - Largest single job category now is retail. Something like 30% of malls are about to close (main street stores already closing), mainly due to e-commerce. The average retail worker there is a 39 year old woman with a high school education.

    - There are 2.5 million employed in call centers (sales & support). Those jobs are about to be automated with voice recognition.

    - Worried about illegals taking jobs? Automation is taking an order of magnitude more.

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    9:13

    "Almost half of Americans are already getting various income support"



    -------------------------

    That's enough for one post!
    Ox

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    10:20 - 10:40

    Utopia Equazsion?


    ------------------

    I don't think I can listen to another 1:40 ???
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    A colleague sent me this -- and it's spot on for this topic of taxing robots -- and using truck drivers as a prime example:

    YouTube

    The video is libertarian-leaning ex judo champ Joe Rogan interviewing Andrew Yang. The first 15 minutes are maybe worth watching.

    Yang's points:

    - We're already starting to automate near half our jobs, starting with truck drivers. The average truck driver is white, male, 49 years old, high school grad. He isn't going to get retraining as something like a software programmer. In fact, current retraining programs are 0-15% effective at best. So what happens to these people? And others to follow (sales clerks, cashiers . . .)?

    - He thinks we ought to have a small basic guaranteed income for each citizen, paid by a value-added tax (these days mostly on tech companies). You don't get to double dip with other welfare, disability, etc. So, it's sort of like an automation tax (value added instead) and it goes to citizens sort of like each Alaska resident gets an energy dividend. According to Wang, hi tech is the new "oil." And a value-added tax at about half the European level would fund it - thus assuring that little-to-no-tax companies like Apple, Facebook, and Amazon wouldn't go scot free.

    - Later he points out that we're replacing old jobs about 3-4x faster than during the Industrial Revolution and there were riots from the displaced back then. Could be a bumpy ride ahead if we don't figure this out?

    - Later he also notes how job insecurity is taking a toll (fewer marriages, less mobility, more drugs & suicides, lower life expectancy, greater inequality, etc.).

    - While I doubt voters will buy his notion of a small guaranteed income (and I'm skeptical on two fronts), he lays out some compelling points. Which later he said politicians said "we can't talk about that."

    - Largest single job category is retail. Something like 30% of malls are about to close (main street stores already closing), mainly due to e-commerce. The average retail worker there is a 39 year old woman with a high school education.

    - There are 2.5 million employed in call centers (sales & support). Those jobs are about to be automated with voice recognition.

    - Worried about illegals taking jobs? Automation is taking an order of magnitude more.


    So maybe we need to put a stop of tech at the current level?

    Basically a return of the Dark Ages, when tech stalled, if not regressed?




    ---------------------

    I like that a whole lot better than paying anyone to sit on their assets.
    Ox

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    We have work coming in next month!
    All hands on deck!

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-says-he-can-order-us-firms-out-of-china-because-of-this-law/ar-AAGh1OP?li=BBnb7Kz



    -----------------------------

    We'll just make our own Shiite!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    So maybe we need to put a top of tech at the current level?

    Basically a return of the Dark Ages, when tech stalled, if not regressed?




    ---------------------

    I like that a whole lot better than paying anyone to sit on their assets.
    Ox
    Yeah, that'll work.

    Just like tariffs make the country with the biggest tariff wall rich, fat, happy and secure.

    Because, hey, everyone else on the planet will agree to and actually DO the stopping tech thing, right?

    Ox, I generally respect you, but really, you'd rather engineer a disaster (well, try - somehow the word 'Canute' comes to mind) than pay people from tax revenue to do nothing?

    Personally, I'm a cynic - I think a hell of a lot of those people will spend their stipend on drugs & porn. But some won't and the alternative is, IMO, worse.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    . . . I don't think I can listen to another 1:40 ???
    Ox
    It's long. I was about to give up at 15 minutes. Still have it running in the background -- they're on to Fentanyl now as I'm typing.

    My take is that it lays out the problem pretty well. The solution is a whole lot less clear.

    So far we've got Yang's solution (pay people and hope they do something productive). And your tongue-in-cheek solution: cap civilization at it's current tech? With most of the nation either ignoring the issue or whistling in the dark.

    I'm thinking we need a third solution.

    I don't think Yang has much chance as a candidate. Not a bad thing that's he's raising the issue, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Yeah, that'll work.

    Just like tariffs make the country with the biggest tariff wall rich, fat, happy and secure.

    Because, hey, everyone else on the planet will agree to and actually DO the stopping tech thing, right?

    Ox, I generally respect you, but really, you'd rather engineer a disaster (well, try - somehow the word 'Canute' comes to mind) than pay people from tax revenue to do nothing?

    Personally, I'm a cynic - I think a hell of a lot of those people will spend their stipend on drugs & porn. But some won't and the alternative is, IMO, worse.

    PDW

    It's as plausible as the model he's presenting - don't'cha think?

    I'm not seeing the disaster here?
    Are you saying that the current status is def con 2?



    I'm sure that your last statement is correct, but still, that would still be $ moving around. Albeit - untaxed.... Negating his first "pro".
    Or would it just raise the price of street drugs? (what the market can afford?)


    It would seem to get more traction after we show less jobs available than unemployed - no?
    There are plenty of jobs around here for anyone that actually want a job, and can pass a piss test.
    Otherwise we are just financing a putz to stay home days and buy drugs at night.
    And typically - it's not just dope that they are failing for!

    And we are somehow worried about wetbacks?
    Are you kidd'n me?
    We need all we can git!
    Not like Whitie wants to get dirty and sweaty and show up every day!


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Last edited by Ox; 08-24-2019 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Or would it just raise the price of street drugs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    It's long. I was about to give up at 15 minutes. Still have it running in the background -- they're on to Fentanyl now as I'm typing.

    My take is that it lays out the problem pretty well. The solution is a whole lot less clear.

    So far we've got Yang's solution (pay people and hope they do something productive). And your tongue-in-cheek solution: cap civilization at it's current tech? With most of the nation either ignoring the issue or whistling in the dark.

    I'm thinking we need a third solution.

    I don't think Yang has much chance as a candidate. Not a bad thing that's he's raising the issue, though.

    Ohio (could be Indiana as I hear Indiana border news mostly, but I think it was Ohio) has had it proposed to use confiscated Fentanyl (I spelled it two ways, and it doesn't like your way any better than mine) to use for Death Row inmates, in stead of whatever certainly high $ means that they are using now.

    Shirley to git shot down as it makes WAY too much sense, and this stuff is deadly!
    But it must be to die for!


    As for capping tech ....
    Simply not allowing automated vehicles, especially commercial, none-the-less Class 8 trucks with doubles on public highways essentially does just that.
    And I am quite OK with that.


    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    9:13

    "Almost half of Americans are already getting various income support"

    Makes it that much easier to git votes when promissing free handouts.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio


    ----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    So maybe we need to put a stop of tech at the current level?

    Basically a return of the Dark Ages, when tech stalled, if not regressed?
    A lot of it is stupid, tho. We could quit doing that.

    For one example, they removed the toll takers on the Golden Gate bridge. They made it impossible for tourists to pay the tolls, so now they lose $100,000 a month from people who live out of state and flip them the finger. "Fastrak" would be okay in one or two lanes, but the whole bridge ? This move is stupidity incarnate.

    Another example is street sweepers. Shanghai streets are clean. There's a low paid street sweeper on every block. In the US, cities buy $250,000 trucks that just stir up the mess. They don't do shit. It's stupid.

    I'm sure we could come up with dozens of cases where "automation" is stupid, more expensive, and works worse than human beings. But that doesn't stop our overlords ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    For one example, they removed the toll takers on the Golden Gate bridge. They made it impossible for tourists to pay the tolls, so now they lose $100,000 a month from people who live out of state and flip them the finger. "Fastrak" would be okay in one or two lanes, but the whole bridge ? This move is stupidity incarnate.
    Not disagreeing with your overall point about automation but it isn't impossible to collect tolls from tourists. I went over the golden gate without paying ( I'm from Oregon) and received a bill in the mail. I suppose I could have ignored it but think it might have caused trouble with registering my vehicle in the future. Even if not, I payed it as that is what I do with bills that I owe. I imagine many others do the same.

    Not having toll takers also speeds traffic, which is pretty horrible in the bay area, so every little bit helps.

    Teryk



    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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    Free money is so often abused. My wife as a Head Start teacher had to visit her student's homes..some a $300 K house with two new cars and a nice boat in the driveway.
    Best if everybody able to work has a job or business

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    I'm told that Chi Town has gone to a liscense plate reader for those that don't have the little box in the vee-hickle.

    So - not exactly free for most.
    But does give you the chance to cheat if you are that kind'a person.

    I once got in a fight with an unmanned booth when I went to pick up steel one time.
    I didn't have a whole piggy bank of change in my truck, and it wanted $.80 or ???
    I was able to scrounge up enough once, but it wanted the same for re-entry, and I didn't have it, so I drove on through.
    Even with a 30' goose on the back, I could still see the eyes of the person behind me bug out in disbelief.

    So - apparently now they would read my tags and send me a bill - that would be fine.


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Robots can operate in any country and as such Robots will operate in the country which taxes them the least.



    Fact: Communism doesn't work. Wealth redistribution only creates problems, very big problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Robots can operate in any country and as such Robots will operate in the country which taxes them the least. , .
    That sounds right. Though it turns out not so simple.

    There are already more robots per capita in several countries with high tax rates: Robot density rises globally - International Federation of Robotics

    Countries with more robot density include Germany, Denmark, and Sweden with total tax burden rates of 45% (Germany) to 50% (Sweden and Denmark). Among the top seven (US is #7), only the island nation Singapore with an exceptionally low 14% burden is lower than the US (at 27%). Source:

    List of countries by tax revenue to GDP ratio - Wikipedia

    So, democratic socialist and high taxing countries like Sweden and Denmark have more robot density. China, in total, has far more robots.

    So, patient capital in Scandinavia is putting in robots and impatient capital in, say, South Korea is putting them in still. I'd guess some our own capital would rather be playing financial games? But no matter how you slice it, the problem of automation replacing people persists.

    Many of us are likely in agreement that paying people to do nothing isn't a solution. That said, we still need to find ways to pay people for work that's currently not getting done.


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