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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Why?

    Because they want them to be a productive member of society?

    Why?

    Because The state survives by looting from those that produce?

    So my life is valuable to the state in direct correlation to my taxable output?

    But my life is no longer my to own and do with what I wish?
    .
    "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains", Rousseau, 1762. Its not a new state of being, tyranny of the masses etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains", Rousseau, 1762. Its not a new state of being, tyranny of the masses etc.
    Man is not born free, but totally dependent and subject to the whims of adults. It's a nice idea but not so.

    Bill

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    hahahahahahahaha


    ha


    hmmm

    hahahahaha

    oh, geez, you are a funny one


    go google russian oligarch
    My statement was almost a verbatim quote from a Bulgarian lady who grew up under Communism, was full grown during the collapse and whose mother worked in a textile factory that had its equipment sold. Her father and sister have PHDs in botany and my friend has a masters in fine art. Her father lost his pension after the changeover and her sister can barely make a living. I wasn't there but have heard plenty about it from someone who was. She says corruption is far worse now than in the old days.

    The information about Russia I have is spotty.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Man is not born free, but totally dependent and subject to the whims of adults. It's a nice idea but not so.

    Bill

    I hear that child birth is high $ these days?
    Was $3G 25 yrs ago.


    --------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I hear that child birth is high $ these days?
    Was $3G 25 yrs ago.


    --------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Can always do a home birth for free.

    As long as you're willing to take the risk of complications up to & including the death of both mother & baby, that is.

    The problem I have with PeteM's position is, it all too easily slides into the 'if <whatever at undefined cost> saves just one life, it's worth it'.

    Well, no, IMO, that isn't necessarily true. I'm pretty ambivalent about suicides but basically, it's *their* life. Stopping them the first time, ok. After that, no.

    PDW

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    I am a bit cornfused...
    How did we segway from bots to jumps?
    Maybe the bots were tossing anyone in 50's - 70's VW Bug's over the side doo to smog issues?

    Anyhow, If this all goes down (I take it that this is a current issue?) it would be swell to see a 10 yr average suicide rate in neighboring counties - before and after.

    I'm guessing that the $500,000,000 study had taken that into account from some nother bridge somewhere else?

    I mean heck, we have plenty that take themselves out around here, and not even counting the smack users....
    We are 300 smiles to the Straits of Mackinac, but there's a pretty good one over the Saginaw River, and that's maybe only 1/2 as far.
    I haven't heard of any of our folks traveling to either for that porpoise?
    I haven't even heard of anyone from here using the High Level Bridge in Toledo?
    (I guess there's a big one over the Detroit River eh? That's maybe a little closer than Saginaw. )

    Maybe just not selling Wild Turkey to anyone that appears to be having a bad day would yield better results?
    Set them up with Miller High Life in stead?


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    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    . . .

    The problem I have with PeteM's position is, it all too easily slides into the 'if <whatever at undefined cost> saves just one life, it's worth it' . . .

    PDW
    Just to reiterate - I don't think (and didn't say) we should pay unlimited or even undefined sums at public expense to save a life.

    Rather, I think we should figure out what a life is worth, probably adjusted for age, and use that same number in pretty much every public calculation of cost-benefit. And do those calculations as best and honestly as we can. That way what we spend (on health care, highway safety, workplace safety, etc.) is spent cost-effectively. Save the lives we can at $10,000 a head, then maybe move on to those we can save at $20,000 a head.

    Also don't think the disabled kid or the genius gets things like unlimited funds for education, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion.

    I'm apparently more sympathetic than many here to those with depression and suicidal thoughts -- especially minors who attempt suicide. Heck, we already know that teens pretty much haven't fully discovered their frontal lobes until their early 20's. So, I'd include their lives in that same cost-benefit calculation of saving lives.

    Reason is, as stated earlier, is because depression is an illness and (IMO) should be treated as other illnesses. I've known two individuals who contemplated (and attempted) suicide and went on to exceptional lives -- contributing well beyond average to society. I'm grateful they weren't successful. Turns out people can recover from suicidal thoughts just as they can recover from motorcycle accidents or cancer.

    Also knew one kid, amazingly bright and talented (top Juilliard student in his instrument) who committed suicide. He was part of a large family, where there where bits of genius in all the kids -- and mental illness in several. He (Greg) committed suicide -- and it shattered his many friends. His oldest brother was was a state gymnastics champ and 800 SAT type who went on to be an actual rocket scientist. Another has a PhD in electrical engineering. The only girl I knew in the family ended up (I think) a physician. Another (super talented and charismatic) went off his rocker and started a cult or something. No idea what happened to Ken -- but for better or worse he was probably pretty good at the cult thing.

    Point is, if we can see a kid like Greg past depression and fully engaged in life -- I'm all for spending the same amount we might spend to keep a drunk driver from dying while veering off the road, a careless worker from being mangled in a stamping press, or a traveler from dying in a 737 Max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    No idea what happened to Ken -- but for better or worse he was probably pretty good at the cult thing

    Now that has me LOL!

    We all gotta have a niche' somewhere eh?



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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I am a bit cornfused...
    How did we segway from bots to jumps?
    Well there *is* a vague-ish connection.

    What Is Deep Learning and How Will It Change Healthcare?

    Next step - automated screening for depression & suicidal tendencies perhaps?

    Yeah, a long bow to draw at this point.

    Still this is a sort-of robot, should it also be taxed to protect doctors from something faster & more accurate in those fields?

    I don't think PeteM's and my positions are all that far apart philosophically, it's just in the doing. And you're *never* going to get people to put a hard number on costs for things like this, they'll get howled down for being heartless regardless, even though it has to be done.

    Field I still do some work in, we had a baby present with a treatable metabolic disorder, late, and it couldn't be saved. Investigation showed that there was a blood sample taken, that screening was performed, and the result for the marker was half the previously recorded lower limit. To detect that child would have meant doing followup testing on an extra 40,000 babies per year, at substantial cost in lab time, hospital time, human time for parents etc. There had never been another child (on record) with this disorder with that low a marker level, and we have 25 years of data on 99%+ of babies born to check against.

    Upshot was, it came under the 'shit happens' category and no changes in procedures were done except to flag this as a case for research into different/better markers for diagnosis. Nobody liked that decision but it was the only practical one.

    On taxing robots again, does auto-analyzers hooked up to computers linked to big databases count? Because, guess what - I'd say they do....

    PDW

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    Just fer grins...

    Did this $5 Billion bridge study break down to which side most jumped from?
    Or did they not have enough funds to break it down that far?


    B/c I'm kind'a wonderin' if most jumped on the west side?
    Free to go accrost goin' north, but they git'cha double going back south...
    Maybe some realized that they just didn't have the ching to go through the chicken coupes?

    Still, $7.75 Cali funds for a round trip doesn't sound all that bad....
    The buoys up at Mackinac ding me about $9 I think going both ways!
    They git me for dual rear wheels and an aftermarket bed.
    I have sleds on the back of a one ton truck, but they ding me like I had a 34K GVW refer loaded with fudge!




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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    When Senator Danforth was in office, I went to one of his town meetings. He related seeing a crack baby that had already cost the taxpayers half a million and could never be normal. He asked the audience what the limit should be or should there be no limit? Total silence, not a single response.

    Even my very religious physical therapist sister says there is a point where babies are so bad that we should let them go. An EEG operator I know says that we can keep lungs breathing and hearts pumping long after the person is for practical purposes, dead. Sometimes families require 3 days of flat line brain inactivity before they can unhook the patient. Sometimes their skin has deteriorated to the point that it is difficult to attach electrodes, but they keep breathing. Another price of the advance of technology.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Just fer grins...

    Did this $5 Billion bridge study break down to which side most jumped from?

    . . . Ox
    $5 Million. Bay Side. Easier access, maybe more comforting views.

    Getting back to robots, get Tony Stark on the job. Iron Man could catch 'em mid air. Might still be expensive, though. Downey got something like $10 million to play Tony Stark in the second Iron Man movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    When Senator Danforth was in office, I went to one of his town meetings. He related seeing a crack baby that had already cost the taxpayers half a million and could never be normal. He asked the audience what the limit should be or should there be no limit? Total silence, not a single response.

    Even my very religious physical therapist sister says there is a point where babies are so bad that we should let them go. An EEG operator I know says that we can keep lungs breathing and hearts pumping long after the person is for practical purposes, dead. Sometimes families require 3 days of flat line brain inactivity before they can unhook the patient. Sometimes their skin has deteriorated to the point that it is difficult to attach electrodes, but they keep breathing. Another price of the advance of technology.

    Bill
    It's truly remarkable - and depressing - how few people understand the concept of 'opportunity cost'.

    Basically they think there's an infinite bucket of money.

    Be an interesting exercise to get people to nominate what percentage of their taxes should go into which areas of Govt expenditure..... then correct it to split out the ones who actually *pay* tax, nett-nett, and those who don't.

    PDW

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  18. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    It's truly remarkable - and depressing - how few people understand the concept of 'opportunity cost'.

    Basically they think there's an infinite bucket of money.
    character flaw, or at least being big on complaining but not thinking it through. These are the tough choices people (me included) don't want to have make but need to be made. Would you save someone for $500? 500,000? about 5 million, 5 trillion? at some point even the most stalwart do gooder has to cave - who would put the entire nations resources into saving one life? Proving everyone really is a heartless bastard, it's just a matter of degree. Reminds me of Lord Beaverbrook's actress whore friend.....we've already established what you are, now we're just negotiating price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    character flaw, or at least being big on complaining but not thinking it through. These are the tough choices people (me included) don't want to have make but need to be made. Would you save someone for $500? 500,000? about 5 million, 5 trillion? at some point even the most stalwart do gooder has to cave - who would put the entire nations resources into saving one life? Proving everyone really is a heartless bastard, it's just a matter of degree. Reminds me of Lord Beaverbrook's actress whore friend.....we've already established what you are, now we're just negotiating price.
    I've had that exact argument with the 'open borders' let them all in brigade. When you start talking of orders of magnitude to them, either they get thoughtful and go away, or they segue into personal attacks so as to avoid actually thinking about it.

    Sadly, the latter reaction is far more common.

    Same with medical interventions and death panels. As you say, everyone will vote thumbs down at some point, just depends where on the cost spectrum that point is.

    Easier to engage in polemics and refuse to think about resource allocation though, while blaming other people for the problem.

    PDW

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    Here is a pertinent case. Google "17 year old girl euthanized". My personal opinion is that a 17 year old is not equipped to make that decision, but that is my opinion and only that.

    As to the overall issue, I see no reason to keep a terminally ill person in pain delaying the inevitable end. To me, the only issue to debate is whether the end is reached actively or passively.

    Anyway, that is a long way from taxing robots.

    My opinion on economic systems is that first we need to get rid of treating them almost as religions that we have faith in. Capitalism, socialism et al are useful mechanisms for the production and distribution of wealth. In their pure form, both are poor systems. Socialism is obviously poor because it removes the direct reward and forces the people in charge to find alternative incentives. When I was in East Germany, we were constantly bombarded by things like signs that read like political campaign posters. In the police waiting room where we had our papers checked, there was a picture of Comrade Schulz standing by his lathe wearing the medal he got for exceeding his quota. I suspect he would rather had a few extra marks.

    The ideal system would be one that fairly evaluated every part we made and paid us appropriately, but that would take a string of supercomputers that would circle the earth at the equator, so we have to use an interactive one where prices, like water, seek their own level. Ethelred comes to market day with string beans a little nicer than Cuthbert's, so he can charge a little more for his. On that level it works very well. When it gets to today's corporation size, there are too many opportunities for abuse. We have multiple examples, the last half of the 1800s and early 1900s where workers had to form unions to survive, in the 1920s banks played the stock and commodities markets with depositor's money, partly responsible for the Great Depression. Congress passed Glass–Steagall preventing a repeat. Then President Clinton signed away what was left of it and the real estate market collapsed. Certainly there were other factors, but that was definitely in there. Still people are saying we have to get government out of business. Nonsense. There have to be controls.

    Next, there has to be a safety net unless we are going to take a totally Darwinian position and let the people who have become unfit die. That has been the custom in some quarters, especially among nomads where the ones too old to travel are simply left. When Jacques-Yves Cousteau was here he sat through a boring presentation of yet another award for the chance to deliver his message about the future of humanity. A major issue is overpopulation. One of his points was that without the equivalent of Social Security, the strategy in undeveloped countries was to have as many children as possible in the hope that when you are old at 50, one of them will take care of you. Enough are never enough when they can be wiped out by an epidemic in days. His comment on birth control was that he was a serious Catholic and the Pope was a very nice guy, but things are things. His other big issue was availability of potable water so girl children were not assigned to carrying it and could go to school instead.

    We also need the government to handle things like fire and police protection, road maintenance, and so on. Alissa Rosenberg, AKA Ayn Rand, wanted to privatize the roads, but she was so traumatized by the Bolshevic's confiscation of her father's Pharmacy that she was irrational.

    If this sounds like I have described the free enterprise but semi socialistic system in Scandinavia, you got the message. Exactly how the taxes are collected is really a small point a long as it is reasonably equitable.

    Bill

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  23. #97
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    Why do we want to find new places to tax?
    We can't stand on our own and want help, free money or penalties against others?
    Seems to be the new American way. Life is tough so I need to tax, tariff or fine my competition.
    Not that I would ever want to step up and try to match them.
    Robots are killing us .....add a tax.
    The concept is foolish beyond belief.
    Just for starters none of that tax money would go back to people that have lost jobs. That is an impossible task despite good intentions.Can't be done.
    So who gets this money to play with and where would it go?
    Bob

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  25. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Why do we want to find new places to tax?
    We can't stand on our own and want help, free money or penalties against others?
    Seems to be the new American way. Life is tough so I need to tax, tariff or fine my competition.
    Not that I would ever want to step up and try to match them.
    Robots are killing us .....add a tax.
    Bob
    Followed in quick succession by "Them damn foreigners with their untaxed automated factories are killing us - add a tariff (or 2)....."

    PDW


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