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Tow vehicle milage questions.

Scruffy887

Titanium
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Location
Se Ma USA
I tow a 10,000# gooseneck race trailer about 40 times a year, currently with an F350 diesel Superduty SRW. I'm lucky to get 10 mpg towing. Average not towing is a bit above 13. I can get as much as 16-17 on the highway with the tailgate down and not towing, but have to keep rpms under 2000.
In short I'm looking for something newer and the Ram 2500/3500 series look good with the Hemi 5.7 or even the 6.4? Not sure if the Cummins diesel is worth the extra $ as the 40 times I tow are less than 200 miles round trip.
Any feedback as to what you are getting/driving would be helpful.
 
Scruffy,

I have a small fleet of first generation Dodge diesels. I had three but one of 'em was stolen recently. To replace the stolen one, and with an eye toward moving away from the old Dodges due to cancerous rust as well as the diminishing availability of parts, I recently bought a '91 Chevrolet long wheel base C3500 from Fort Bliss in El Paso. The empty truck weighs 6000 pounds and has a 2000 payload capacity. I.e. it is a two ton truck.

After I bought it I went after it with a rented gooseneck trailer pulled behind my old '91 Dodge D350. Before I bought the Dodge about 15 years ago, the truck had spent it's life as an oilfield service truck. By the time I acquired the truck the davit crane had been removed, and the odometer had broken at 350,000 miles. The titled weight of the truck is 8,500#. It may weigh slightly less since the crane was removed but I'm not sure. But it is a big, heavy, worn out truck. It is entirely possible - perhaps even likely, that the truck has over 500,000 miles on it.

Before the trip to El Paso I had not checked the fuel economy in many years. In fact, I have checked it only one time - soon after I bought it in about 1998 or something close. On that occasion I made a round trip to San Antonio - empty. To my surprise and delight, the truck delivered just south of 23 mpg. Since the odometer was broken I based the calculation on the google distance between home and the destination.

Quite a few years -- and many many miles later -- I put a set of commercial duty Michelin tires on the truck. In a bad judgment call, I bought tires with the all terrain (mud and snow) tread rather than a standard highway tread. I never did check the fuel economy again after I bought the new tires (until I made the trip to El Paso) but I always sensed that the mileage was not as good as the "good old days".

I wish to repeat and underscore that today, the old truck is slap dab worn out. Still, on the empty run to El Paso and the loaded trip back, the Cummins engine's power was nothing short of "sublime". The truck has a second generation 5 speed transmission in it with a fairly high overdrive. On both legs of the trip I passed many many vehicles - going uphill. Only on the return trip did I have to down shift to direct drive going up hill on the longest grades in far West Texas. The Cummins engines are made of two ingredients: iron and guts.

On the run to El Paso pulling a medium sized 20 foot gooseneck trailer I got no better than 13 mpg. On the trip home with an estimated 10,000 pound trailer pulled behind an 8,000 pound truck that had been the equivalent of to the moon and back, I got no worse than 12. I may have added one quart of oil but cannot remember.

Regards,

Vernon
 

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What year is the Ford that your currently driving? Motor? Transmission? etc? mileage? You would be surprised at what a few after market upgrades will do. The newer emissions devices are PITA.

My work truck is a newer F450 utility toolbox 4x4 6.0L auto transmission the computer is always doing some BS message on the dash. The other place I worked it was a F350 4x4 6.0L manual regularly got 12 to 14mpg pulling a 14K goose-neck.

I'm guessing that it's a 7.3L motor because my personal truck has a 7.3L and it gets it's best fuel economy under 2000rpm. I would look at the differential gearing and if a 4R100/E4OD automatic possible transmission slippage under a load.
 
I Drive/tow a 2004 Dodge 2500 diesel with auto trans. just driving around or highway I do 20 to 21.5. Towing a 10000# trailer with a big flat front @ 65-70 mph I get 14 MPG. The Cummins engine and fuel cost more but I'd do it again in a heart beat............................Bob
 
Towing with a 2008 drw dodge with a4.10 gear, 6.7 cummins, auto trans pulling a 30' tandem dual gooseneck empty about 13 mpg, with an 7000 lb vmc on the bed about 11 due to drag. The truck gets about 17mpg empty by itself. The 2000 F350 gets 16 empty on a good day, 7.3l automatic trans. My 2002 excursion, which is basically a 3.73 geared 3/4 ton truck chassis with an enclosed body I can get 20 mpg if I baby it.... 7.3l automatic.
 
I tow a 10,000# gooseneck race trailer about 40 times a year, currently with an F350 diesel Superduty SRW. I'm lucky to get 10 mpg towing. Average not towing is a bit above 13. I can get as much as 16-17 on the highway with the tailgate down and not towing, but have to keep rpms under 2000.
In short I'm looking for something newer and the Ram 2500/3500 series look good with the Hemi 5.7 or even the 6.4? Not sure if the Cummins diesel is worth the extra $ as the 40 times I tow are less than 200 miles round trip.
Any feedback as to what you are getting/driving would be helpful.

I have a smaller 2008 truck with a Hemi 5.7 not really setup for towing. I only tow a small travel trailer (26ft 6000#) with and the mileage on the 'no head wind' flats is 13 to 14... in the hills I get eaten alive at 6 to 9. There is plenty of power going up in the hills, but it really likes the gas if you heavy foot it.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that the Hemi will work for you, but I'm wondering, after what I've read here, if the right setup in diesel might but a better choice? The savings in fuel cost alone might just offset the higher bucks paid for the Cummins in a few years of trips.
 
I have an '11 GMC 2500HD long box, extended cab with the 6.0L gas. Its not fully broken in yet, so numbers should improve by at least .5mpg. With no trailer and little load it will get 12-13mpg at 75-80mph, 14-15mpg at 55mph. Put a 4300# deck over trailer behind and mileage drops about 2 mpg. I had a 12' high, 3,000# load on the trailer a few weeks ago and drove 60 mph into a 25 mph head wind. Mileage calculated out at 6.8 mpg. The 6.0L has good power even with a gross weight over 20,000#.

New diesels are notoriously fickle about repair costs. Get it out of warranty and every mile is a crap shoot. And there is nothing cheap about repairs. Any diesel visit to the repair shop at less than $1,000 is a good one. Sure, there are great storys of 7.3L Fords and 2 valve Cummins. But those days are long gone.

In the end, mileage is much more about wind resistance and frontal area than weight. If you have to move semi tractor sized amounts of air out of the way, expect to get semi sized mileage.
 
I<snip> ... Sure, there are great storys of 7.3L Fords and 2 valve Cummins. But those days are long gone.

Actually, not necessarily true. All you have to do is be willing to roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty, and "roll your own". In terms of reliability and low cost maintenance, the best platforms - are - after 30 years - still the Ford/International 6.9 and the first generation Dodge Cummins trucks & engines. The early power strokes were also good. But they're a whole other echelon of maintenance & repair complication and expense.

V
 
In the end, mileage is much more about wind resistance and frontal area than weight. If you have to move semi tractor sized amounts of air out of the way, expect to get semi sized mileage.
This is true. You can't beat physics. Any gas truck towing that can get double digits you'd be doing good. There haven't been that many leaps and bounds in mileage. Dodge hit the sweet spot early on in the 12 valve Cummins for power and mileage which is why the prices on running trucks are climbing faster than collector cars.
I'm sticking with my V-10 Dodge for now.
 
12-valve daily driver here (280+K). I absolutely cannot imagine going back to the torqueless world of gas. Commuting-only yes, but that's only because diesel prices are over-inflated.

But I have replaced and tweaked most of the parameters*. She makes 48# of boost when requested, and gets 20+ mpg empty _under 70mph_. Never pulled heavy enough far enough to pay attention to tow mileage. I enjoy the I6 grunt every day.

*parameters: injection timing advanced, governor springs replaced/adjusted, torque plate is hand-made (my hands) copy of TST#10, custom injectors, oversized turbo, ports polished, valve-springs upgraded, fire-rings (o-ringed head), head studs, 3-piece manifold, 4" exhaust into 5" stacks. Clutch by Southbend Clutch, (fine folks). I did all the work except machining the head.

I've built 3 of the mechanical-injector trucks (two 12's and one 24v) to run proper (with dyno-testing), and last a long time.

Also, i made that final jump to 20mpg by reducing my cruising speed to close to the limits posted. Frontal area is fixed, resistance is a function of speed^2. Another easy way to 'economize' is to install a good boost gauge, 3-5 psi is about all you really need for putt-putting. When that needle starts swinging, fuel is being sucked at high volume. Keep the needle down, economy goes up. (drive like g-pa).
 
I had a 2011 dodge 1500 truck with the 5.7 gas. Without a loat it would average 15mpg and if it ran a long highway run I would get 18mpg maybe. I used the truck for a trip to Colorado once, and had two sleds in the bed on a sled deck (maybe 2000lbs total) I got 8-9mpg highway) The gas dodge would piss you off for towing. If you really only tow a few times a year it might be the ticket. I prefer my replacement truck which is a 2001 ford F-350 with the 7.3 diesel. It makes lots of power. The downfall to that heavy truck is it gets 12mpg. My 2cents
 
I tow a 10,000# gooseneck race trailer about 40 times a year, currently with an F350 diesel Superduty SRW. I'm lucky to get 10 mpg towing. Average not towing is a bit above 13. I can get as much as 16-17 on the highway with the tailgate down and not towing, but have to keep rpms under 2000.
In short I'm looking for something newer and the Ram 2500/3500 series look good with the Hemi 5.7 or even the 6.4? Not sure if the Cummins diesel is worth the extra $ as the 40 times I tow are less than 200 miles round trip.
Any feedback as to what you are getting/driving would be helpful.


My BIL has the 5.7 Hemi in his 3/4 ton 4wd. He claims great mileage with it. Can pull the race car on the flats w/o dropping out of O/D with 4.10's I think. I think he says that he gets 12 (?) with trailer, 15 local, and who knows hwy as he seldom gets far w/o the trailer. He loves it. I don't think I would want it in a 1 ton tho. ???

I have a '99 5.9 Cummins, and would love to find something comparable, but this stoopid power war has me :ack2:

I have hope that in a yr or two that Dodge will offer this new "eco-diesel" in the bigger trucks. It has almost identical hp/trq ratings as my older unit, and delivered favorable results in a tow test by 4wheeler magazine in the Woody Wagon. I think it was like 22-23mpg with a 7K# trailer in tow.

I have been needing a new truck for a few yrs. I don't know how much longer I can hold out - waiting for something mileage driven in the big truck models. At least now I can see a possible answer - if it will just get here soon!


----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I bought a new company truck - 6.6l Duramax in a 2500HD, 4x4 w/3.73 axle and have been getting 17 mpg with less than 2500 miles on the clock so far. I drive 50 miles round trip to work in combination city, country driving climbing / descending 1000 feet of elevation between home and work.

I have an equipment trailer that I towed with my 6.0l gas Yukon with 4.11 - it did a miserable job towing heavy loads with 6-8 mpg loaded (12,000 lbs) and 10 mpg empty (3500 lbs) and 13 - 15 with no trailer.

I was curious how the Duramax would do with the trailer and carefully kept track of the mileage the first time I used it for towing. Driving through half a tank got 14-15 mpg with the trailer empty and the other half tank loaded looked to be 12 mpg - not many flat roads and head wind / rain all the way home. The difference in performance however was unbelievable with engine torque and Allison 6spd . . . I much prefer the diesel when it comes to towing.
 
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Sure, there are great storys of 7.3L Fords..... But those days are long gone.

Actually, not necessarily true. All you have to do is be willing to roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty, and "roll your own". In terms of reliability and low cost maintenance, the best platforms - are - after 30 years - still the Ford/International 6.9 and the first generation Dodge Cummins trucks & engines. The early power strokes were also good. But they're a whole other echelon of maintenance & repair complication and expense.

V

To everyone I know who has considered buying a old body style Ford with a 7.3 Powerstroke,

I always tell them they will need to do the following, if it hasn't already been done:

-Camshaft Position sensor needs to be replaced with the updated version to prevent unexpected stalling.

-Air filter housing needs to be replaced with a "Tymar" filter setup to prevent dusting of the engine and free up restriction.

-Rotate the crankcase breather (on the driver's side valve cover) 180deg and run a pipe down underneath the truck. Cap the nipple where the breather used to go into the intake. This will keep the hot crankcase gasses from recirculating through your intake.

-Fuel filter bowl and mech. fuel pump need to be thrown in the trash. Put on an aftermarket fuel filter, an electric fuel pump, and an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator. Make sure you change the fuel inlet fittings on the backs of the heads. They WILL leak otherwise. If you don't do this, you will have a fuel pump go out or leak unexpectedly, the filter bowl will corrode away on the bottom and begin to leak, the fuel heater in the filter bowl will short out, which will blow a fuse and shut your engine down, and/or you will develop a leak in one of the many hoses underneath the filter bowl.

-The exhaust backpressure valve needs to be removed from the turbo, the flap cut out, and the shaft holes welded. When it's time to replace the turbo pedestal O-rings, cut the backpressure valve actuator off the pedestal and weld the valve oil holes shut. The backpressure valve only causes restriction and the actuator valve is an oil leak waiting to happen.

-The factory (restrictive) exhaust down pipe needs to be replaced with an aftermarket downpipe (preferably 4" diameter), remove the catalytic converter, and replace the rest of the exhaust with a minimum 4" mandrel bent, and if you use a muffler, make sure it's a flow-through model (no baffles). When you do this, you ensure that your exhaust gas temperatures aren't getting out of hand, which often happens with the factory exhaust. It also increases efficiency ALOT.

Put a good chip in the truck...the aftermarket programs make more power AND are more efficient.

Don't be afraid to put mildly larger injectors in the truck (such as "Baby Swamps") Your truck will make much more power and won't loose efficiency (so long as you don't use all the power, all the time.)

-Manual transmission trucks need a solid mass flywheel conversion and transmission must be overfilled by 1-2quarts (Synthetic ATF only). Otherwise, they get too hot in overdrive when towing and tend to wear synchros faster.

-Automatic transmission trucks need to have an upgraded tranny cooler and a shift kit put in the valve body (minimum). Ideally, they should have and upgraded torque converter and the tranny torn down and upgraded by Brians Truck Shop or someone similar. The Auto trannys in these trucks can be made to last forever, but they didn't come from the factory that way.

-If you ever think an injector has gone bad, rebuild the injector harness plugs on the inside and outside of the valve cover gasket. They have been known to short out and cause symptoms that even a ford dealer will tell you is a bad injector or four, when in reality, the injectors rarely go bad.

If you get one of those trucks, and do everything listed above, you will probably never have to do anything more than maintenance and replacing normal wear-parts. I have 350,000mi on my '95 which I bought about 14 years ago. I did the above things a long time ago, and have never been left stranded.


To everyone I know who has considered buying anything else....

I tell them to buy an old body style Ford with a 7.3 Powerstroke. ;)


Infact, my wife needed a new truck this past winter. She was looking at mid 6.0 F250s and 350s. After some long discussions about the benefits of the old body style, we found her a pristine '97 Crew Cab F350 4x4 with 140,000mi. It cost me every bit as much as a clean 2006 would have, but that's because the old body style has actually increased in value since I bought mine. The wife couldn't be more happy with her truck...and I will never give up my '95.




Now, as far as mileage goes, you can get around 20mpg in the lighter 2x4 reg and super cabs when unloaded. My crew cab 4x4 dually and the wife's crew cab 4x4 single wheel usually see around 17mpg on the highway. Sometimes down to 14 with a heavy load on them. The dodge cummins trucks tend to get good mileage...sometimes better than the Fords. Why? Because the dodge trucks are lighter and usually geared around 3.55-3.73. I've talked to a number of disappointed people who put a cummins in their Ford, only to find out that they lost their Powerstroke's wide hp/torque band and didn't gain any mileage.

All the diesels get nearly the same mileage (except for the newest ones with the exhaust filters which get very poor mileage due to the diesel-fed filter regeneration cycle).
Each of the available diesels has their own quirks that need to be addressed to get an extremely reliable truck that you don't have to tinker with.
Never take your diesel truck to a shop. No one knows what they are doing. There are plenty of forums to help educate you.

-Phillip
 
-Automatic transmission trucks need to have an upgraded tranny cooler and a shift kit put in the valve body (minimum). Ideally, they should have and upgraded torque converter and the tranny torn down and upgraded by Brians Truck Shop or someone similar. The Auto trannys in these trucks can be made to last forever, but they didn't come from the factory that way.

I stripped the input shaft on the F350 which sees most heavy duty hauling steel and such ( flatbed makes it easy to tie down). The Input spline on a 2000 F350 drw with a 4 speed automatic is only about 7/8 round and engaged in less than 12 inch of the Torque converter. When you strip that 1/2 inch of spline you don't go anywhere.....

That is the only time the F350 left me high and dry. The 2008 dodge with the 6.7 - It pulls 20k about twice as easy as the Ford, 10k does not feel alot different between the trucks. It could be the Dodge's higher number of gears in the trans....
 
I stripped the input shaft on the F350 which sees most heavy duty hauling steel and such ( flatbed makes it easy to tie down). The Input spline on a 2000 F350 drw with a 4 speed automatic is only about 7/8 round and engaged in less than 12 inch of the Torque converter. When you strip that 1/2 inch of spline you don't go anywhere.....

That is the only time the F350 left me high and dry. The 2008 dodge with the 6.7 - It pulls 20k about twice as easy as the Ford, 10k does not feel alot different between the trucks. It could be the Dodge's higher number of gears in the trans....

The newer Dodges are nice to drive and haul well. My only concern with the 6.7 is the fact that they seem to be burning pistons left and right due to injector issues. Keep a sharp eye on that. If it starts running rough or smoking more than normal, something is about to be very wrong.

My old '95 does pretty well for it's age/mileage. It's up around 350hp at this point, and I have grossed as much as 36,000lbs on a couple rare occasions. I wouldn't want to do that with a "Superduty" though, as their suspension was changed to soften the ride, therefore, they just don't haul as well as the old bodies. The newer common rail injection trucks can make a lot more power, but the issues I keep hearing about are not as easily fixed as the piddly stuff that needs to be done to the 7.3. That's why I'm sticking to the old body trucks...not to mention the fact that the engine isn't covered up by the cowl/cab. I can't imagine having to pull my cab just to work on my engine. :o


-Phillip
 
Something I've suspected, and this thread confirms, is that there's been basically zero change in loaded or unloaded gas mileage on heavy gas engine pickups in the last 20 yrs.

I've got a 92 Ford crew cab dually with 460/5 spd/4.10 axle, and the mileage figures quoted here on current gas engine trucks of similar capacity are pretty much exactly the same as I've seen on my old Ford. But, since I've only managed to put 140K miles on it over the last 22 yrs, I don't worry too much about the gas mileage :D
 
My '96 5 speed 3500 SRW (converted to single wheel and leaf spring front w/Ford HP60) 4x4 Dodge weighs 7600 Empty and gets about 16 average as a daily driver with 4.10's and 35" BFG tires. It'll get around 12-13 towing whatever I can hook behind it. The guy I bought it from hauled 2nd gen 90's Cummins dodge pickups at a time on a 9000 pound trailer on this truck. It doesn't really notice 10K behind it.

I recently did a trip to LA and back in my '93 D250 5 speed truck. Going down I was 10,500 gross with my empty trailer and tools. Coming back I was 19,800. That 93 engine is completely stock 160 HP 400 lb/ft 2300 RPM governed speed 12 degrees timing, etc. I went no slower than 52 MPH in 4th up the grapevine at 19,800 and she pulled the steepest sections of the Siskiyous at 42 MPH in 3rd. On level ground I was doing 70-80 MPH. I was pretty impressed at the performance, that was a lot of weight for that little truck. That truck has delivered 21-22 MPG daily driving for the past couple years. For that 2200 miles of being flogged towing way more than that truck should tow it got 16.75 MPG for the trip. Didn't burn a drop of oil, in fact the oil was still clean when I got back. The engine's around 325K and just got pulled to go into a non-Dodge vehicle. That was it's second dodge body that engine wore out. Now it's in an FZJ80.

Dodges kind of suck, but you cannot beat a 12 valve for reliability and economy. The first gens are too light of a truck to safely tow much. The brakes are terrible and you'll wear out Dana 70's over and over again if you're towing. I would go second gen with a stickshift for towing 10K pounds regularly. The stick trucks got the Dana 80 which isn't all that great of an axle after Dodge cheapened the shit out of it, but they do hold up much better than the 70 did. The latter AAM axles are much, much better than the Dana/Dodge crap.

The 98-02 24 valves are decent, they are noisier than I like though. I like all the 12 valves and the 03-05 commonrails. The commonrail power band sucks stock if you're used to a 12 valve, but modified they are pretty awesome.
 
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If your looking to tow heavy or long distance, find a 2001-2002 Dodge with the 6 speed transmission. Those were the true high output tow rigs.
If your daily driving on pavement, and only towing <10000lbs on the weekends, a Chevy/GMC duramax is a great option. If your off road, a 1998-2002 Dodge 5 speed (or the previously mentioned 01-02 6spd) is the ticket.
Fords sit somewhere in the middle of all of this. They don't to any of it especially well, but are capable of all of it.
For the amount of money invested though, the manual trans Dodge is the best option. Ball joints every 30-35000 miles is a lot cheaper than injectors in the Duramax every 40-50000miles, or the various issues in the different Fords.
Avoid the 6.4L Powerstroke. Its a turd. Avoid the 6.0L Powerstroke, its a gamble (the later generation was not bad). The 7.3(DT444) is a runner, but gutless and always leaks oil. The newest (6.8L if I remember correctly) has power out the ass, but gets shit fuel economy and seems to have a lot of issues with the DPF and DEF systems. The Gen1 12v 5.9 has torque to spare, but you will go no where in any hurry. The Gen2 24v had a few major issues with a fuel pump diaphragm, a simple electric fuel pump on the frame rail pushing 12-14psi eliminates that issue. The Gen2 HOs were beasts, be careful, a lot of dealerships called them HOs but they were not, only the 6spds were. The rest of them, well they don't make it into the fleet for a reason.

If you decide to go gas, get a big block V8. DO NOT GET THE V10. They all have had some serious issues.
Mileage may vary with this info, just my experience.
 
If your looking to tow heavy or long distance, find a 2001-2002 Dodge with the 6 speed transmission. Those were the true high output tow rigs.
If your daily driving on pavement, and only towing <10000lbs on the weekends, a Chevy/GMC duramax is a great option. If your off road, a 1998-2002 Dodge 5 speed (or the previously mentioned 01-02 6spd) is the ticket.
Fords sit somewhere in the middle of all of this. They don't to any of it especially well, but are capable of all of it.
For the amount of money invested though, the manual trans Dodge is the best option. Ball joints every 30-35000 miles is a lot cheaper than injectors in the Duramax every 40-50000miles, or the various issues in the different Fords.
Avoid the 6.4L Powerstroke. Its a turd. Avoid the 6.0L Powerstroke, its a gamble (the later generation was not bad). The 7.3(DT444) is a runner, but gutless and always leaks oil. The newest (6.8L if I remember correctly) has power out the ass, but gets shit fuel economy and seems to have a lot of issues with the DPF and DEF systems. The Gen1 12v 5.9 has torque to spare, but you will go no where in any hurry. The Gen2 24v had a few major issues with a fuel pump diaphragm, a simple electric fuel pump on the frame rail pushing 12-14psi eliminates that issue. The Gen2 HOs were beasts, be careful, a lot of dealerships called them HOs but they were not, only the 6spds were. The rest of them, well they don't make it into the fleet for a reason.

If you decide to go gas, get a big block V8. DO NOT GET THE V10. They all have had some serious issues.
Mileage may vary with this info, just my experience.

I would agree with most of what was said here. Those 24valve 5.9s were good engines and made good power. I would also agree about the fuel pump issue and the simple fix of an electric pump. The bodies and interiors of those Dodges didn't seem to hold up well, but the drivetrain is very solid.

The one thing I would point out is, although the DT444 was fairly gutless, they were only available for the first half of 1994. For the 1994.5 trucks, Ford switched to the T444E, otherwise known as the 7.3 Powerstroke. The Powerstroke wasn't a major powerhouse when stock, but with a little work, they were (and are) very strong runners.
 








 
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