What's new
What's new

Trades/ skilled labour rates in Europe/Italy

Mcgyver

Diamond
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Location
Toronto
This is more fabrication than machining, but its all metalworking. I'm competing with an Italian firm for a large fabrication project. I recently had a group from the customer visit, they are an Italian company, and they've told me some of their local labour rates. I'm wondering if any of you guys have some insight on this and can confirm or deny

They're saying in Northern Italy they're paying welders, fitters and millwrights 1,200 Euros/month. They go onto say that payroll taxes, benefits, vacation about double this (we're about a 20% bump), gross cost 2400 Euros/month

It seems very low, They other thing they said that shocked me was that a typical fabrication all in shop rate is 35 Euros in their area.

Wow, forget China, maybe we should be outsourcing to Europe lol.....So can you guys give me the straight goods on costs over there?

thanks!
 
No insights into machining metals, but Italy is kind of the go-to location for a lot of millwork and furniture. And of course fashion fabric and leather.

I have always been frustrated that we do not have an international base of smallish woodworking/furniture companies that can compete with the Italians who do that stuff so well. Some of it is design. A big portion is marketing. But my guess is most of it is that it is easier to find truly skilled people in Italy, and yet the wage expectations are lower. I think in many areas the cost of living is lower, there, though, too. Assuming one does not have "American" expectations of 2 or 3 large cars, and a crackerbox mini-mcmansion.

College & beyond education is free or very inexpensive, and healthcare is free,too, isn't it? Maybe we could compete if we ever got those items undercontrol for people who used to provide our skilled trades & basic labor class.

PS I did not reaslize the Euro was as low as it is currently. Not to far back, seems it was closer to$ 1.30 - $1.40/euro? So given the lead/lag locally, those wages don't really seem bad; especially if that is an average.

• EUR USD annual average exchange rate 1999-2015 | Statistic

smt
 
Talented workers in my area (northern Germany) bill about 60 Euros/hour. That includes standard machinery (mills, lathes, welding). There will be a charge for any consumables plus travel. If special machinery is involved then the cost might go quite a bit higher. To hire someone full-time would cost the employer (including taxes + health insurance costs) around 50-80,000 Euro/year depending upon age and experience.
 
Talented workers in my area (northern Germany) bill about 60 Euros/hour. That includes standard machinery (mills, lathes, welding). There will be a charge for any consumables plus travel. If special machinery is involved then the cost might go quite a bit higher. To hire someone full-time would cost the employer (including taxes + health insurance costs) around 50-80,000 Euro/year depending upon age and experience.

Thanks....that's reasonable sounding. Any sense whether northern Italy be such a depressed region that 1200 Euros/month is even possible for a welder/fitter?
 
This is more fabrication than machining, but its all metalworking. I'm competing with an Italian firm for a large fabrication project. I recently had a group from the customer visit, they are an Italian company, and they've told me some of their local labour rates. I'm wondering if any of you guys have some insight on this and can confirm or deny

They're saying in Northern Italy they're paying welders, fitters and millwrights 1,200 Euros/month. They go onto say that payroll taxes, benefits, vacation about double this (we're about a 20% bump), gross cost 2400 Euros/month

It seems very low, They other thing they said that shocked me was that a typical fabrication all in shop rate is 35 Euros in their area.

Wow, forget China, maybe we should be outsourcing to Europe lol.....So can you guys give me the straight goods on costs over there?

thanks!
.
monthly rate means nothing. hourly is only thing unless they pay no overtime. cost of living means 1,000,000.00 more than anything of course and is incredibly obvious
.
many countries when food, clothing and shelter is 1/8 the cost of another country of course pay rates are lower of course. if it cost $1 to live all month food clothing and shelter than $2 is a massive amount of money.
.
i have seen Chinese make $3/hr yet have 2000 sq foot house with modern appliances, cable tv, internet, send child to college and have money saved or property like 2nd house being rented as 2nd source of income. they actually live easily on $3/hr.
.
the most money saved is no loans at interest, ever never life time if possible. no buying $200,000 house which with loan interest might be $400,000. it has been said many americans waste over 50% on loan interest.
another saving is many have no car and bus ride is $0.25, cost of car for many americans with car loan, insurance, gas, maintenance often is over $15. each day and is bus ride is less than $1/day the savings accumulate. many many example of cost of living. like no school loans ever through bank usually relatives loan money at zero interest.
.
take simple cell phone there is no $90/month plan. there is prepaid paid $20 cell phone good forever never expires and no phone calls made $20 credit is there forever. incredible massive savings from 100 different ways other countries do not piss money away. many americans literally waste 95% of their income. does not matter if you make $1000/hr if you waste most of it
.
also often there is no land taxes, income tax, sales tax not paid often........ literally huge loss of income americans have
 
Skilled machinists/fabricators over here earn around 2000-2600eur/month before taxes.
(That is, if they can find work, unemployment has been a major problem lately)
Shop rates for general machine work are around 45-55eur/h + VAT
These rates around Helsinki metropolitan area, and other major cities.
Employer fees are usually 70-80% on top of the salary. (Insurance, taxes, retirement, healthcare, vacation pay, sick leave etc etc.. The unions are strong over here.)

Quite a bit less in the countryside. A small shop with simple welding and sheet metal equipment or a manual machine shop rate is in 30-40eur/h range, and wages are lower as well.

If you add up the numbers, hiring an employee for 2600eur/month will cost the shop ~33eur/h during the year. That doesn't leave much profit at all after paying for machines and shop space. Explains why most countryside shops are run by the owner or their family only with no employees.

The long recession has hit the industry quite badly, and prices have come down. Seems the downturn is over in the industry, and prices have been steady for a while.

Oh, i've been wondering the low material prices lately as well.
On my last order i paid 4eur/kg (2.02$/lb) for 6082 T6 aluminium and 6.5eur/kg (3.28$/lb) for 7075 T6 aluminium. Probably Norwegian origin, i've never had any quality issues with the aluminium i've received. Stainless has come down even more, i paid 4.30eur/kg (2.17$/lb) for 316 stainless few weeks ago. All these prices are small orders for solid barstock, i usually order just one or two bars of each size.

Let's have a comparison, how much do skilled trades earn in the US? How about materials? There's probably as wide variety as within Europe, but maybe we'll get some kind of average. :scratchchin:
 
The rates quoted by the others are exactly inline with my experiences here in western Germany and eastern Netherlands. Northern Italy is a little less than here, but not as low as quoted to you. The 1200 quoted is take home, net income, not gross. Shop labor in northern Italy it about 50 Euros an hour average, where here it is between 60 and 80. Southern Italy is about 10% less.
 
I have some experience from Finland, Germany, Sweden, (UK), and lots in Spain.

All rates mentioned are right.
Finland, Northern germany, Sweden - as mentioned.

A modern pro metalworker (50 and under) in Finland or Sweden will be an engineer, skilled in cad/cam, and make about 4000€ and up, month.
Or equivalent due to experienec and skills.

Spain or Italy.
1200 € /month may be gross, or it may be net. There is very little difference, at 1200 the taxes are low.

1200 € is a rate for a "commercial" fabricator, welder, basic artisan with experience and skills.

A real millwright, as one who installs commercial cnc stuff, gets about twice that, 2400 or so /month, and easily 500€ in benefits +extras.
We employed 6, so..

The cost is important, and is about 100% of top of salary.
So 1200 gross salary costs the shop about 2400/mo.
At 35€ shop rate, gross income = 5600€/mo, and leaves 5600-2400=3200 for the shop.

Avg gross billing/income per worker for all workers in Spain is about 6000€/mo.

35€ / is a going rate, southern europe, for shop work, excluding the highest-expense countries like germany and switzerland, around 60-80€.

My data is based on talking to about 50+ shop owners/machine dealers in other countries apart from my own experieneces.

A top guy in sales or master fabricator or both, commonly speaking fluently either english/german/french + local languages, cad/cam (multiple), skilled manuals and cnc, good manager, will get 10k plus.
Some get significantly more.

Any nr of them is available, but not for less money.

Avg typical cost of top sales guys, gross, is about 8000€/month (similarly, their total compensation about 50%).
For this you get excellent skilled people, languages, motivation, (mostly) engineer, 10+ years working.

Local basic skilled trades help is available for 1000€/mo, in any quantity, at this time, in Spain.
PM if you want a significant project done.
 
Sounds about right, northern italy is pretty rural, like my part of the uk. Around here, for a decent - long term order fab time in the circa £30 a hour range is readily available, pay is still circa £9-12 a hour then anouther %11 tax on top hence the shops easily going to be pulling in north of £10 a hour profit even at thoes rates.

Long term i think the USA is going to have a real issue with there quoted shop rates, on a global scale its just not competitive!
 
The prices you quoted are probably true, maybe a bit low, but pretty close.
But you have to realize- there are many very big structural differences that account for it.
As mentioned above, the employer pays an equal amount in taxes as in pay.

Monthly is the way to look at it- in Italy, there is essentially NO overtime- the law says the maximum an employee can work in one week is 48 hours. And, even that isnt common.

I was in several Italian shops a few years ago, and saw a lot of younger guys who worked half time, and went to the state technical school the other half. They get paid for their hours worked, and they get hired on full time when they graduate- I believe its a two year course at the end of High School.
The technical school is basically free.
 
thanks for all the info, it sounds like pay his higher to the north and with the leading economies but that 1200 with the employers cost double that is not out of line for the area.

JH-Q, in just to offer a comparison, in my part of Canada we're 20-25 CDN$ /h labour rate for welder/fitter. add 20% for payroll taxes and benefits. Steel we're $0.33/pound CDN$ for light gauge sheet say 10g, and that moves up a bit as you get thicker -1" might be $0.40/lb. Structural shapes we're $0.40 - 0.48/lb. Thats all prime with certs.
 
This is more fabrication than machining, but its all metalworking. I'm competing with an Italian firm for a large fabrication project. I recently had a group from the customer visit, they are an Italian company, and they've told me some of their local labour rates. I'm wondering if any of you guys have some insight on this and can confirm or deny

They're saying in Northern Italy they're paying welders, fitters and millwrights 1,200 Euros/month. They go onto say that payroll taxes, benefits, vacation about double this (we're about a 20% bump), gross cost 2400 Euros/month

It seems very low, They other thing they said that shocked me was that a typical fabrication all in shop rate is 35 Euros in their area.

Wow, forget China, maybe we should be outsourcing to Europe lol.....So can you guys give me the straight goods on costs over there?

thanks!

Wages and the standard of living are much better in northern Italy than in the south. However I don't get what costs have to do with any offer as far as the customer goes. Workers in northern Europe are generally regarded as being more productive than in the south. Wage costs might be higher in the north but more gets produced for less.

File:Estimated hourly labour costs, 2014 (
 
Meanwhille in Denmarh workers are paid $62 per hr , NET
They can produce 3 time more than american workers
 
This is more fabrication than machining, but its all metalworking. I'm competing with an Italian firm for a large fabrication project. I recently had a group from the customer visit, they are an Italian company, and they've told me some of their local labour rates. I'm wondering if any of you guys have some insight on this and can confirm or deny

They're saying in Northern Italy they're paying welders, fitters and millwrights 1,200 Euros/month. They go onto say that payroll taxes, benefits, vacation about double this (we're about a 20% bump), gross cost 2400 Euros/month

It seems very low, They other thing they said that shocked me was that a typical fabrication all in shop rate is 35 Euros in their area.

Wow, forget China, maybe we should be outsourcing to Europe lol.....So can you guys give me the straight goods on costs over there?

thanks!



i wouldnt trust those figures
firstly they came from a potential customer trying to get your bid down
secondly thay came from an italian....
 
The info that I have comes from an italian tech that commissioned some very expensive (and fancy ) equipment made for the food industry. Please don't ask for more details, as they are confidential.
I asked some questions about pay. And yes, he comes from around Milan.
He told me that millwrights and fabricators make about 1500 euros to 1800 euros / month. 2000 euros / month is uncommon. But here is the kicker : when they have a project (and most of them are a "rush job") they don't get paid overtime. Hmm... So I asked : what if you don't want to stay for the unpaid overtime ?
I was told it is expected from an employee. If an employee declines on a regular basis (more or less), then he will loose his/her job... Unemployment is rather high in Europe these days.
He flew to Canada, worked crazy hours with us and got paid regular time : 40 hours a week. Not a penny more, according to him.
He is a man in his late 50s, traveled a lot for the company he works for.


This is more fabrication than machining, but its all metalworking. I'm competing with an Italian firm for a large fabrication project. I recently had a group from the customer visit, they are an Italian company, and they've told me some of their local labour rates. I'm wondering if any of you guys have some insight on this and can confirm or deny

They're saying in Northern Italy they're paying welders, fitters and millwrights 1,200 Euros/month. They go onto say that payroll taxes, benefits, vacation about double this (we're about a 20% bump), gross cost 2400 Euros/month

It seems very low, They other thing they said that shocked me was that a typical fabrication all in shop rate is 35 Euros in their area.

Wow, forget China, maybe we should be outsourcing to Europe lol.....So can you guys give me the straight goods on costs over there?

thanks!
 
It is only in Denmark. If you are not believing me ask Gordon.
Danes are magic people..

I am bsing of course

No, not magic, just blessed :)

I can't imagine a Danish machinist working for less than $25 an hour.

The figure can vary depending on the exchange rate.

XE.com - USD/DKK Chart

Denmark doesn't have the euro but it does follow the euro to within ±2%. As things are that gives a strong Danish Crown (DKK).
 
The info that I have comes from an italian tech that commissioned some very expensive (and fancy ) equipment made for the food industry. Please don't ask for more details, as they are confidential.
I asked some questions about pay. And yes, he comes from around Milan.
He told me that millwrights and fabricators make about 1500 euros to 1800 euros / month. 2000 euros / month is uncommon. But here is the kicker : when they have a project (and most of them are a "rush job") they don't get paid overtime. Hmm... So I asked : what if you don't want to stay for the unpaid overtime ?
I was told it is expected from an employee. If an employee declines on a regular basis (more or less), then he will loose his/her job... Unemployment is rather high in Europe these days.
He flew to Canada, worked crazy hours with us and got paid regular time : 40 hours a week. Not a penny more, according to him.
He is a man in his late 50s, traveled a lot for the company he works for.

Believe an Italian? LOL

Italy Average Salary Income - Job Comparison

Of course, as in Greece, everybody cheats on tax.

It should never be about how much but rather about what can be bought with what you get.
 








 
Back
Top