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  1. #21
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    No, not the race to the bottom...

    The race to devalue currency, so on paper it “costs less” to manufacture.

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  3. #22
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    I see many of the same PM members post quite often throughout the day. Are they retired, self employed or are they goofing off at work when they should be earning their wages?

    I've driven past construction sites and absolutely every worker in sight was on his cell phone..not a shovel or pick in hand. How does this work?
    You can sort of tell when I am on a union construction job. Will stop posting on PM for days or weeks at a time except maybe weekends. (Usually by law) they have to pay us non-union guys a fairly stiff hourly differential above what the union guys make because we don't get union benefits. I don't waste any time on those jobs and won't abide those who do if i have supervisory input. Can't stand the morons trying to trade cell phone porn shots all day.

    If I'm posting often it's probably because i'm home in the shop and make so little the breaks doesn't cost much to the bottom line anyway. I'm retirement age, but not likely to be able to practice actual retirement.

    smt

  4. #23
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    Thought you were a pattern maker.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by CPM2014 View Post
    Union workers are the best...just ask them. A lot of talk and not a whole lot of substance. I would NEVER hire a union worker. I would go as far to say that unions are one of the major flaws in America.
    Too strong?
    Do you lump all union workers together.... Policemen, Fireman, Nurses, or is it just machinists & production workers are useless?

  6. #25
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    A friend of my father's who was retired from the National Labor Relations Board, told me that in his experience,a company ends up with the labor union that they deserve. In my own personal experience, an excellent Management/Labor relationship can be ruined forever by a single instance of purposeful lying. An employee who depends upon his union to uphold his relationship to management will be disappointed in the end. Regards, Clark

  7. #26
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    Race to the bottom, anyone?
    The jobs are going to go somewhere! Personally I would rather see them come to America.

    Now, they may not be the high-paying jobs you guys in the big busy urban areas are used to seeing, but nonetheless, there are a lot of places in America that want and need any decent paying job.

    As time goes on more-and-more manufacturing will be leaving these high-cost areas in America, regardless of how profitable and successful the companies are. Why? One word: competition.

    It's called capitalism folks. No, it's not a perfect system, but fierce competition for every dollar is what capitalism is all about, and companies either play the game or they go home.

    I for one have learned in 21 years in business it is generally better to take jobs (that suit our capabilities of course) often at prices well below where I would like to be. But in the end, it's better to have the work and the jobs, than to see them go elsewhere. And at the end of the month, I've bankrolled more money than I otherwise would have.

    Isn't that true in America as a whole?

    ToolCat Greg

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  9. #27
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    I've been in a lot of different plants, union and not.
    Pretty much no common thread.
    Always a few slow walkers, a few pricks, a few people that won't let you do your job.

    I will say this, the nonunion people making union wages don't seem to mind their paycheck and bennies being better than those across the street in a nonunion shop.

    The big auto shops down south are nonunion because they treat their labor as an asset, the union shops up north never did and never will.

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  11. #28
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    I have limited experience with union workers, none of which were machinists. The experience I had with the dock workers union doesn't leave me with a favorable impression on the few trade shows I have exhibited at. Certainly not worth the money they were able to swindle from the exhibitors.

    This doesn't mean some unions aren't worthwhile or even necessary, just my experience.

    I will say that I won't work in a union shop because I want my success or failure to be dependent on the work I do an value I bring to the company. I don't believe the good hardworking men and women of America get taken advantage of at the rate the union leadership would have you believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The jobs are going to go somewhere! Personally I would rather see them come to America.

    Now, they may not be the high-paying jobs you guys in the big busy urban areas are used to seeing, but nonetheless, there are a lot of places in America that want and need any decent paying job.

    As time goes on more-and-more manufacturing will be leaving these high-cost areas in America, regardless of how profitable and successful the companies are. Why? One word: competition.

    It's called capitalism folks. No, it's not a perfect system, but fierce competition for every dollar is what capitalism is all about, and companies either play the game or they go home.

    I for one have learned in 21 years in business it is generally better to take jobs (that suit our capabilities of course) often at prices well below where I would like to be. But in the end, it's better to have the work and the jobs, than to see them go elsewhere. And at the end of the month, I've bankrolled more money than I otherwise would have.

    Isn't that true in America as a whole?

    ToolCat Greg
    Not me, I want to play with an iphone, not make them.

  13. #30
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    My father told me repeatedly, Its not what you know, its who you know.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    So we are winning the race to the bottom ?

    I go after my rate.

    If I can figure a way to do a $20 part for $10 at my rate...then if I split the saving with my customer, charge him $15...
    IS that a race to the bottom?

    Not the way I see it.

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  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomarc View Post
    I see many of the same PM members post quite often throughout the day. Are they retired, self employed or are they goofing off at work when they should be earning their wages?
    I stare at 3 screens all damn day. Two design computers for modeling parts and generating machining programs, and the third one is connected to the internet for email. That would be this one here, and yes, I AM FUCKING OFF ON COMPANY TIME TYPING ON PM at this moment but if I were younger I'd probably be watching porn. So gimme a break, willya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CPM2014 View Post
    Union workers are the best...just ask them. A lot of talk and not a whole lot of substance. I would NEVER hire a union worker. I would go as far to say that unions are one of the major flaws in America.
    Too strong?
    Interesting. Try finding a good machinist in Europe that isn't a member of a trade union.

    Trade unions in Europe - Wikipedia

    I must admit I'm often surprised at how few "rights" workers have in the USA. Who looks out for workers in the USA?

    Trade union - Wikipedia

  18. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    I stare at 3 screens all damn day. Two design computers for modeling parts and generating machining programs, and the third one is connected to the internet for email. That would be this one here, and yes, I AM FUCKING OFF ON COMPANY TIME TYPING ON PM at this moment but if I were younger I'd probably be watching porn. So gimme a break, willya?
    ...PLUS I think he's the BOSS.....

    No need for this eh ?
    Boss key - Wikipedia

  19. #35
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    [QUOTE=Gordon B. Clarke;3130032]Interesting. Try finding a good machinist in Europe that isn't a member of a trade union.

    Once again you are not looking at the facts before you make generalized statements.
    Union membership is no longer a big issue in England. A lot of members only joined because a lot of jobs were closed (ie not open to non union members).
    In 1979 the amalgamated engineering union had 1,483,400 members.
    In 2008 after it had combined with the transport and general workers union (among others) the total membership was 1,420,000.
    These figures were taken from their own published accounts and not Wiki.

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    [QUOTE=camscan;3130232]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Interesting. Try finding a good machinist in Europe that isn't a member of a trade union.

    Once again you are not looking at the facts before you make generalized statements.
    Union membership is no longer a big issue in England. A lot of members only joined because a lot of jobs were closed (ie not open to non union members).
    In 1979 the amalgamated engineering union had 1,483,400 members.
    In 2008 after it had combined with the transport and general workers union (among others) the total membership was 1,420,000.
    These figures were taken from their own published accounts and not Wiki.
    A "general statement" isn't the same as saying "all". I wrote "Europe" not a single country or part of a country. At one time long ago I was a member of the AEU. The unions in the UK (or has England become independent?) ruined things for themselves by wanting (probably "demanding" is more true) more that they gave. Probably why they aren't popular in the USA. In some countries unions work well, in others they don't.

    Here (Denmark) unions (employers unions and workers unions) negotiate just about all industrial agreements (wages, working hours etc.) without government interference.

    BTW how is industry doing in the UK? Not much left is there?

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    [QUOTE=Gordon B. Clarke;3130237]
    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post

    A "general statement" isn't the same as saying "all". I wrote "Europe" not a single country or part of a country. At one time long ago I was a member of the AEU. The unions in the UK (or has England become independent?) ruined things for themselves by wanting (probably "demanding" is more true) more that they gave. Probably why they aren't popular in the USA. In some countries unions work well, in others they don't.

    Here (Denmark) unions (employers unions and workers unions) negotiate just about all industrial agreements (wages, working hours etc.) without government interference.

    BTW how is industry doing in the UK? Not much left is there?
    When you say Europe then that includes England therefore my statement stands. I do not discuss the UK because different parts have different systems. Are they popular Inthe USA? I have no idea,not my area of specialised knowledge. I will leave that for an American to answer.
    Of course there is industry in ENGLAND,just more specialised and automated.

  22. #38
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    [QUOTE=Gordon B. Clarke;3130237]
    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    BTW how is industry doing in the UK? Not much left is there?
    Pretty good now theres not much competition, as to non union, thats the norm here in the uk for most things in all honesty these days. That said, give it 12 months and your comment won't apply here any more thank god, so should be even easier to compete with europe.

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  24. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Interesting. Try finding a good machinist in Europe that isn't a member of a trade union.

    Trade unions in Europe - Wikipedia

    I must admit I'm often surprised at how few "rights" workers have in the USA. Who looks out for workers in the USA?

    Trade union - Wikipedia
    Who said workers have few rights in the US? You have the right to work where you see fit. You have the right to ask for whatever you want at the company you work for. Whether or not the company you work for will give them to you is a different story. If you don't like your situation then find a better one. You make it sound as if the US is filled with slave labor.

    It's the same bs with you on any thread. You make it about US versus EU or Denmark. For this reason and this reason alone I would never by any of the products you make.

  25. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    No need for this eh ?
    Boss key - Wikipedia
    In one of Scott Adams' books he presents a collection of stories contributed by readers of Dilbert (easily the most trenchant work-themed comic of the last 50 years) one of whom had written a program that would instantly switch to a fake spreadsheet. Another neat one was a screen designed to allow the individual to go walk the halls or whatever while it displayed "Do not touch...COMPILING..."

    This was from some years ago, and the technology has since evolved, but you can bet the basic trick got developed within hours of the first graphical user interface installation at a workplace.


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