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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Who said workers have few rights in the US? You have the right to work where you see fit. You have the right to ask for whatever you want at the company you work for. Whether or not the company you work for will give them to you is a different story. If you don't like your situation then find a better one. You make it sound as if the US is filled with slave labor.
    It once was filled with slave labor...
    Company towns and scrip.
    No protections at all.
    All out physical war.

    Why do you think we have unions at all?

    And you are a fool if you think the owners wouldn't like to go back to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It once was filled with slave labor...
    Company towns and scrip.
    No protections at all.
    All out physical war.

    Why do you think we have unions at all?

    And you are a fool if you think the owners wouldn't like to go back to that.
    Joke is on you Groucho Marx, i'm an owner and I don't want that.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Joke is on you Groucho Marx, i'm an owner and I don't want that.
    One of thoudands.
    And you can't compete with those willing to ermine wages down and extract maximum profit.
    Anymore than you can compete with offshoring.
    Just like labor, capital has to compete as well, and the most rutheless almost always wins.

    Why are women dying in factory fires in Bangladesh that are exactly the same as the shirtwaist fire of a century before?

    Because the ruthless win.

    The owners here sold out their labor force.
    The wages and protections dropped.
    The next workers will look at that and put up with less.

    Yep, gotta keep the serfs from getting too uppity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Who said workers have few rights in the US? You have the right to work where you see fit. You have the right to ask for whatever you want at the company you work for. Whether or not the company you work for will give them to you is a different story. If you don't like your situation then find a better one. You make it sound as if the US is filled with slave labor.

    It's the same bs with you on any thread. You make it about US versus EU or Denmark. For this reason and this reason alone I would never by any of the products you make.
    I didn't know he made and sold anything. Why on earth does he not push it on Practical Machinist? I would have thought this is the ideal place to sell engineering tooling. He does push it? Well he must hide it in a reply that he makes on any subject he can wangle it in on. I will have to keep my eyes open if I need any inspection equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Who said workers have few rights in the US? You have the right to work where you see fit. You have the right to ask for whatever you want at the company you work for. Whether or not the company you work for will give them to you is a different story. If you don't like your situation then find a better one. You make it sound as if the US is filled with slave labor.

    It's the same bs with you on any thread. You make it about US versus EU or Denmark. For this reason and this reason alone I would never by any of the products you make.
    No, you and others make it about the USA vs the EU. I just write how things are elsewhere.

    Heaven forbid you could learn something.

    Who looks out for workers in the USA? Can you answer? Are things better now than they were 30 years ago? They are in most industrial countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    No, you and others make it about the USA vs the EU. I just write how things are elsewhere.

    Heaven forbid you could learn something.

    Who looks out for workers in the USA? Can you answer? Are things better now than they were 30 years ago? They are in most industrial countries.
    I never made it USA vs EU. I have never spoken about manufacturing Europe because I don't know squat about it.

    I look out for myself and the employees that work for me.

    As far as 30 years ago I was just learning to shit on the toilet, so I can't really answer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    Who looks out for workers in the USA?
    Like everywhere, themselves. Perhaps you are so naive as to think unions aren't also looking for themselves?

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  10. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It once was filled with slave labor...
    Company towns and scrip.
    No protections at all.
    All out physical war.

    Why do you think we have unions at all?

    And you are a fool if you think the owners wouldn't like to go back to that.
    It was once that way. I never said unions were a bad thing or a good thing.

    I guess I am a fool, because as an owner I give my employees every opportunity I can. Hell if you compare hours worked with wages, all but one of my employees make more than me and thats only because he's a high school intern.

    You paint a pretty broad brush with your opinions.

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    "Company towns and scrip" went out with high button shoes. As justification for organizing a workplace it's about as relevant as working conditions during construction of the pyramids.

    If you're going to cite labor history Miguel, how about all the strikes during WW2 where the longshoremen refused to load ships to supply the troops? My favorite response was Harry Truman's during Korea, when he got tired of their shit and nationalized the mines, "out-Bolsheviking the Bolsheviks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    It was once that way. I never said unions were a bad thing or a good thing.

    I guess I am a fool, because as an owner I give my employees every opportunity I can. Hell if you compare hours worked with wages, all but one of my employees make more than me and thats only because he's a high school intern.

    You paint a pretty broad brush with your opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    "Company towns and scrip" went out with high button shoes. As justification for organizing a workplace it's about as relevant as working conditions during construction of the pyramids.

    If you're going to cite labor history Miguel, how about all the strikes during WW2 where the longshoremen refused to load ships to supply the troops? My favorite response was Harry Truman's during Korea, when he got tired of their shit and nationalized the mines, "out-Bolsheviking the Bolsheviks."
    Careful, you two... Would not want to confuse someone with the facts.

    Still, while we're here, can someone please tell me which of the actually relevant shop managers or shop owners you guys are writing to? Haven't actually seen one yet, as far as I can tell.

    That is the forum this is. Right?

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  15. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    It was once that way. I never said unions were a bad thing or a good thing.

    I guess I am a fool, because as an owner I give my employees every opportunity I can. Hell if you compare hours worked with wages, all but one of my employees make more than me and thats only because he's a high school intern.

    You paint a pretty broad brush with your opinions.
    Which is fine and dandy until some one not as nice as you cuts you out.
    Capital has to compete too.
    If your competitor off shores, you have two choices, go broke or follow.
    If his labor is cheaper, you lose business.
    Nice guys finish last.

    That's no an opinion.
    It's why we don't have a textile industry here and people are still burning to death in factory fires in Bangladesh.

  16. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    "Company towns and scrip" went out with high button shoes. As justification for organizing a workplace it's about as relevant as working conditions during construction of the pyramids.

    If you're going to cite labor history Miguel, how about all the strikes during WW2 where the longshoremen refused to load ships to supply the troops? My favorite response was Harry Truman's during Korea, when he got tired of their shit and nationalized the mines, "out-Bolsheviking the Bolsheviks."
    How about how the hard left labor movement stopped agitating during the war.

    Wars are funny...they show just how effective a command economy can be.
    Really think market forces built the industry of WWII?
    Nope it was the government telling everyone what to do, and what it would cost and how much gas you could have.

    If you don't think that history is relevant, remember this.
    Our labor is competing with people still living that history.
    That's what everyone is bitching about when they complain about job killing regulations.
    Damned safety and pollution and wage laws...make us uncompetitive with Bangladesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It once was filled with slave labor...
    Company towns and scrip.
    No protections at all.
    All out physical war.

    Why do you think we have unions at all?

    And you are a fool if you think the owners wouldn't like to go back to that.

    So, in 1908, Legal migrants coming to America from the shithole of Europe for a chance at a better life and a job, but who only found very low paying labor work that required long hours were "Slaves" to their "owners".

    But in 2018 you support the very political party that Demands to bring in millions of Illegals from the shithole of central/south america because you want/need that very cheap labor that won't complain, otherwise the price of Kale might go up fifty cents.

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  19. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I must admit I'm often surprised at how few "rights" workers have in the USA. Who looks out for workers in the USA?

    Different mindset Gordon...


    I'll speak for myself, I look out for myself, its called personal responsibility.


    If I have a tough time dealing with that I have the freedom to find a union job and "pay them" to look out for me.

    Also the government does have a good amount of regulations looking out for workers.

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  21. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Which is fine and dandy until some one not as nice as you cuts you out.
    Capital has to compete too.
    If your competitor off shores, you have two choices, go broke or follow.
    If his labor is cheaper, you lose business.
    Nice guys finish last.

    That's no an opinion.
    It's why we don't have a textile industry here and people are still burning to death in factory fires in Bangladesh.
    Who pisses in your coffee everyday?

    You forgot the third choice... beat 'em.

    So let me get this straight. By your way way of thinking, I have to screw everybody over to have a chance. When I do that I will get the work, but then my competitors will steal the work back by sending the work over seas. So why try right? I better just go buy that hot dog cart.

    You don't seem to understand it's also about building good solid relationships with your customers, so they want to stay with you even if you are just a little bit more. Sure you may lose work with some, but if that's case then screw them. There's more to running a shop than just being the cheapest. *Shameless plug* We have seen 15-20% growth every year by being "nice guys". So frankly your opinion means jack shit.

    Are you an owner or are you just a butt hurt employee because "the man" has you down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Careful, you two... Would not want to confuse someone with the facts.
    OK, I'll bite. Button shoes were in my mother's time, as was payment in company scrip (in fact, during the depression her town paid in scrip) so I consider the two reasonably contemporaneous. In the context of industrial relations circa 2018 they are, figuratively, "ancient history," like the pyramids. That's hyperbole, Miguel, in case you're reading this.

    As to facts, there actually were a great many strikes afflicting defense work during WW2. There were 118 wildcat work stoppages in Detroit auto plants in December 1944 and January 1945 (the plants were not making cars but war materičl). There is an indisputable record of union interests taking precedence over a national emergency. About 10,000 workers at the Timken Roller Bearing Company in Canton, Ohio, struck twice in June 1944. How ironic is that? We were incurring tremendous aircrew losses trying to suppress German bearing production! With union workers on the job the Germans didn't need to bomb our bearing plants... Then in September 1944, 20,000 workers struck for two days at the Ford Willow Run bomber plant, against the transfer of workers in violation of seniority rules. Striking a bomber plant in wartime? Seriously?

    Anyway, you asked for facts. Those are some—enough that whenever I see the stars and stripes on somebody's local badge it makes me cringe.

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  24. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Different mindset Gordon...


    I'll speak for myself, I look out for myself, its called personal responsibility.


    If I have a tough time dealing with that I have the freedom to find a union job and "pay them" to look out for me.

    Also the government does have a good amount of regulations looking out for workers.
    Yes...government does have those regulations.
    Because unions fight for them every year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Who pisses in your coffee everyday?

    You forgot the third choice... beat 'em.

    So let me get this straight. By your way way of thinking, I have to screw everybody over to have a chance. When I do that I will get the work, but then my competitors will steal the work back by sending the work over seas. So why try right? I better just go buy that hot dog cart.

    You don't seem to understand it's also about building good solid relationships with your customers, so they want to stay with you even if you are just a little bit more. Sure you may lose work with some, but if that's case then screw them. There's more to running a shop than just being the cheapest. *Shameless plug* We have seen 15-20% growth every year by being "nice guys". So frankly your opinion means jack shit.

    Are you an owner or are you just a butt hurt employee because "the man" has you down?
    Funny...
    All those textile plants back east relied on the same model.
    The tool makers who buy 'import' because the USA is too steep.
    It's a matter of basic economics.
    If you are selling something that can be made cheaper it will be.
    Maybe not this week, maybe not in your lifetime...but it will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    OK, I'll bite. Button shoes were in my mother's time, as was payment in company scrip (in fact, during the depression her town paid in scrip) so I consider the two reasonably contemporaneous. In the context of industrial relations circa 2018 they are, figuratively, "ancient history," like the pyramids. That's hyperbole, Miguel, in case you're reading this.

    As to facts, there actually were a great many strikes afflicting defense work during WW2. There were 118 wildcat work stoppages in Detroit auto plants in December 1944 and January 1945 (the plants were not making cars but war materičl). There is an indisputable record of union interests taking precedence over a national emergency. About 10,000 workers at the Timken Roller Bearing Company in Canton, Ohio, struck twice in June 1944. How ironic is that? We were incurring tremendous aircrew losses trying to suppress German bearing production! With union workers on the job the Germans didn't need to bomb our bearing plants... Then in September 1944, 20,000 workers struck for two days at the Ford Willow Run bomber plant, against the transfer of workers in violation of seniority rules. Striking a bomber plant in wartime? Seriously?

    Anyway, you asked for facts. Those are some—enough that whenever I see the stars and stripes on somebody's local badge it makes me cringe.
    Are you writing the next Labor Day Special for Fox News?
    The production workers in WWII were somehow holding back the war effort?
    Older workers, disabled men and many women sacrificing and busting ass to make war materials?
    So by 1944 some wanted a few scraps of fat off Henry Ford’s overflowing plate and you’re calling them out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    OK, I'll bite. Button shoes were in my mother's time, as was payment in company scrip (in fact, during the depression her town paid in scrip) so I consider the two reasonably contemporaneous. In the context of industrial relations circa 2018 they are, figuratively, "ancient history," like the pyramids. That's hyperbole, Miguel, in case you're reading this.

    As to facts, there actually were a great many strikes afflicting defense work during WW2. There were 118 wildcat work stoppages in Detroit auto plants in December 1944 and January 1945 (the plants were not making cars but war materičl). There is an indisputable record of union interests taking precedence over a national emergency. About 10,000 workers at the Timken Roller Bearing Company in Canton, Ohio, struck twice in June 1944. How ironic is that? We were incurring tremendous aircrew losses trying to suppress German bearing production! With union workers on the job the Germans didn't need to bomb our bearing plants... Then in September 1944, 20,000 workers struck for two days at the Ford Willow Run bomber plant, against the transfer of workers in violation of seniority rules. Striking a bomber plant in wartime? Seriously?

    Anyway, you asked for facts. Those are some—enough that whenever I see the stars and stripes on somebody's local badge it makes me cringe.
    Interesting, I'll have to look into that.
    What's your source?

    I was talking about the much more hardcore labor movement of the North West...The IWW.
    What was essentially the US Communist Labor movement punched out at the beginning of the war.

    The AFL-CIO was not part of that group and generally hated them.
    Was the AFL-CIO mafia at that time?
    I can never quite remember that time line.

    As to bad things to do in wartime...
    How about cutting taxes.


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